Adam Haniver [00:00:26]:
Episode 106. Absolutely delighted to have Simon Mullen in on the podcast. And he's just given me a quick heads up. He says, look, if I do start talking, rein me in.

Simon Mullan [00:00:45]:
That's 100, right? Because I'll be talking, I'll be talking, I'll be talking. And then all of a sudden I'm thinking, what the hell am I talking about? I don't know if that's a boxers thing or not. It could be, but let's see, let's see how we go.

Adam Haniver [00:01:00]:
Well, you know, it's like two boxing coaches or boxing people at a boxing show. We just, you go off on all sorts of tangents and just talk rubbish throughout it. So let's, let's feel free to talk rubbish for a while.

Simon Mullan [00:01:10]:
It's not rubbish, it's all good information. There's no rubbish.

Adam Haniver [00:01:14]:
Absolutely. I was dressing it down. Right, Simon, so for those people who don't know, give us a little bit of a background about you in terms of profession, British Army and officiating. Anything else in between?

Simon Mullan [00:01:28]:
Okay. So it goes back quite a bit. I'm 48 now and I started boxing since when I was 11, so it's been quite a long time, I would say, which is pretty good because I've kind of seen all aspects of it. So I started off competing. I lost my first four bouts straight off. I think I got stopped twice in the first four. And then a lot of people say the same when you come to courtship. I think that if you get those people that stick with their losses at the beginning, all of a sudden you can work with them. And I was learning from it. So I started boxing, lost my first four. Then I carried on, carried on and thought, hang on a minute, I'm actually not too bad. I think it was nerves, to be honest. So then I had quite a few, quite a few amateur bouts. I won the school's title, then I won the youth, then I won the under nines and then I lost in the senior final about three years later. And then I thought, right, I'm going to carry on. It was close. I wasn't feeling too well. And then I finally won the senior Welsh box against the army back in Wales. And then they come up to me and said, look, have you ever thought about joining the army? And I was in college doing welding at the time, so I'd done my qualifications, so at this time, so I was 16 to 17, but when the senior Welsh, when I was 20, 22, and then I thought, you know what, I was going to turn pro, I had it in my sights, I'm gonna go pro, gonna do this. I was training, I was gonna sign. I was gonna sign with Enzo Calzaghe, Joe Calzaghe's father. He come up to me, approached me and there was also another guy called Dai Gardner who used to train Johnny Owen, the matchstick man. So we used to spar locally all the time. So, like stone throw from a house so you could just walk up there. So I was mixing with the pros anyway, and then I thought, okay, broke my thumb and I thought, oh, look, I've got a mortgage. I had a mortgage when I was like 20. So for money to work, to be boxing, boxing was a hobby. So I thought, right, you know, I need to pay my mortgage. 

Then the army approached me and said, look, you boxed against us. Why don't you join the army? They said you could go straight into the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers because you've done your apprenticeship in fabrication welding. So I thought, okay. And then I thought, you know what, let's give it a go. So I joined the army, carried on training. But when you, when you join the army, you go into a trade. So when I was doing the trade, they wouldn't release me to do the boxing. So I was kind of in limbo. I was a current Welsh champion when they had the Commonwealth Games coming up. But then I went through basic training and then I had nobody around me, nobody around me whatsoever to say, you, you come up Welsh champion, you should be looking at the Commonwealth Games. But there was nobody at all. I was just a number. Then when you joined the army, I was a number. So then all of a sudden, after two years of being in the army, doing my training, Iraq happened. So straight away I went straight out to Iraq. So then while I was on tour, one of the officers come up and he said, you're a fit lad. He said, everybody likes training with you. Because I was introducing boxing while we was away and then he said, he said, have we ever thought about becoming a physical training instructor? And I said, oh, I'd love to. So I done that. Then as I was doing the physical training instructor, I started doing the coaching in the regiments and then from there I went from coaching and then the next step, officiating. Got out the army and I thought, what can I do? Started coaching in the local club. Then from the local club, I thought, right, what can I do? I still want to be in the ring, I still want to do stuff. I'm 48, I still feel 14, my mind is still 14, 15, 16. You still think you can do everything. I want to be in the ring, I want to be competing, I want to be doing this. So refereeing was the next step. Basically. You get such a buzz, you know, when the, when your boxes win, you get such a buzz because you, you've, you've added to that. So it was just. So it's been a long journey. It's never been a break. So from 11 till now, I've just been involved in amateur boxing.

Adam Haniver [00:05:54]:
How do you think your, your career as a PTI as well, and your learning as a PGI, how do you think that's really impacted your coaching?

Simon Mullan [00:06:02]:
Well, to be honest with the army, I know you have to be able to do to teach. So if you're telling somebody to run a mile and a half, you know that you have to be able to do a mile and a half. If you were leading people, you need to lead by example. That's what I think. If, if you've got a coach that is maybe 35 stone is telling him to like, watch your weight, it's a little bit hypocritical. I think, anyway, not saying that it's a bad thing, but they, they tried to get you to lead. So if you're giving somebody 100 press ups, is it realistic? Can you do 100 press ups? Do you know there's not many people that can really do 100 solid good press ups. So it's, it's making it manageable and enjoyable. With the, the army side of it, with the PT, it was, I was trying to change it in my mind that if people are enjoying stuff, they're gonna want to do more of it. So, I always link that, I know what it's like having 25 kilos doing 8 miles running up a hill thinking, how can I breathe through my years? I need another, I need, I need another entrance to get more oxygen. Does that make sense? It's like, how could I do this? So when you're, when you're teaching, especially younger kids, I think is good to be understanding that some people are going to struggle, some people are going to struggle, make it enjoyable. So make the struggle worthwhile. So that's what I kind of bring in. That's what I kind of looked at developing on.

Adam Haniver [00:07:34]:
But I find that interesting though, because you wouldn't relate a PTI, you know, because everyone's idea of what a PTI is, if you don't know about the forces, is like hardcore hard ass, do as you're told. You know, it's that old school kind of thing. And if one of your learnings is to think that bringing fun into exercise and boxing, that would be something that you would have thought that. Why would that be one of the things that you take out? But I agree with you, Simon. I think fun is probably the most. What, you know, you do boxing because you enjoy it and it's not a dirty word. So, so it's interesting that you've, you've kind of taken that approach from your military times and now applied it in your coaching. I wouldn't thought most people would. They've probably still got that hard ass, hardlined approach. Does that make sense?

Simon Mullan [00:08:22]:
Yeah. The thing is, right, you know yourself when you're boxing, you know what it's like to be punched. You know what it's like to be hit in the stomach and be winded. You know what it's like to think, oh, come on ref, give me a count, I need one now. I'm surviving you. So it's compassion as well. If you're enjoying something, you're there to enjoy it. Why? Why make it even worse? Does that make sense? I used to struggle with anxiety. Unbelievable. And people say it gets easier. It gets easier. It gets easier. It doesn't. The more bouts you have, the more anxious I used to get because, you know, one punch changes it. Especially me. I was a counter boxer. I was tall, I was skinny. Everybody that I seen the box had a punch. Every time I go in a coach and say this, this lad can hit, be careful, this lad can hit.

Adam Haniver [00:09:11]:
I was like, you've said that every single time.

Simon Mullan [00:09:14]:
This is like a. Yeah, my nose, as everybody knows, is pretty flat. So I think I was pretty good at taking punches. Would I tell boxers to do that? No. But times have changed. The education. I watch you training at your college and you're doing positive mindset. You're doing, you're doing tasks, which is fun but competitive. And you know, everybody loves competition. That's what boxers want. They want competition. They want to be better than the other person. But you can be so focused on that that you take the enjoyment away. So it's about, you can win, but winning with compassion and winning with dignity. And don't rub it in their face, okay? You beat them, they might beat you next week or the week after, because Karma's a bugger. It comes around. So I believe that anything that you were doing, you should, you should kind of take the positives out of it. If you, if you don't win, what did you do? Good, not negative. I lost. I walked out the ring. Ah. Every time I, Every time I'm refereeing and the boxer comes up to me, I know who's won the bout. I'm in the middle of the ring watching, and I'm thinking, you got hit quite a lot there. You can't think you've won that, but you've done brilliant. And what an entertaining bout. Go away. I say go away. Come back stronger. And I think it works. I think it works. You know, and you've got coaches telling people you won that, you won that, you won that. Tell them the truth. Be brutally honest. You didn't win that. You didn't hit enough. You move too much. You need to hold your feet. If you're not landing punches, you're not winning.

Adam Haniver [00:11:03]:
You do see that a lot, don't you? You're like, yeah, it's unanimous. Five nil. All five qualified judges thought you thought you lost. And then the, the coach is kicking off telling them, that's rubbish. I thought you win.

Simon Mullan [00:11:19]:
It's quite frustrating really, because I want to say, Coach, stop a minute. You. A boxer just boxed out of his skin. I watched him box last week and he boxed this week and he was 10 times better. But you're still focusing on the negative. Get a positive, Get a positive. Amateur boxing, if you've got 50, 50 record, you're doing well, you're doing well. When you go to. We talk about Lewis Richardson coming up, when he went international, I said, Lewis, you're going to lose quite a few bouts now. And he was like, why? I said, because the scoring system might be different. It's just different. It's just they like different styles. They like different things. And he was like, well, no, I'll still win. And I go, yeah, perfect mindset. But don't be too disappointed if you don't win. It's a long game. It's a long game. Work on the long game, not the short. Win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win. I'm giving up.

Adam Haniver [00:12:16]:
Absolutely. And I think actually it almost starts from that position. When you pull both boxes into the center of the ring for the decision.

Simon Mullan [00:12:23]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:12:24]:
And you raise one of the hands up. I mean, everyone's got their own sort of things that they like and dislike. I don't like the celebration thing before the decision. You know, the hands up, like claiming the decision. I don't like that already. I think at that point we should just be humble and just let the decision come and then, you know, shake hands. If you lose, have a hug, it's you lose, that kind of thing. What's your opinion about this? Kind of like, as the kids go in the middle, they're both raising their hand and, you know, all that sort of stuff.

Simon Mullan [00:12:52]:
I kind of have like a mixed opinion on it. I. I love the passion. I love the passion of it. They built up the adrenaline. They've just competed. They've just done what they thought. Yeah, I'm top of it. Some boxers, they just stand there, they know they've won. That's enough. That's enough. You know, some people, like, you're not going to change the people's opinion now. The score has been handed in. It's done. Do you know, it's a funny one. It's a strange one. I know that which boxer is going to jump up and really rip my arm off when I'm trying to raise his hand. And I always try to kind of take the focus off that part and turn to the other box and say, look, you've done really well there. That was a good bout. You know, go away, come back stronger. I always try to focus on more of the boxer that just didn't have the decision because the boxer that's gonna have the decision, he's. His adrenaline's pumping or her adrenaline's pumping. So kind of kind of think, right. Leave them have their moment. Just, you know, don't focus on it so much. I don't know, maybe it's compassion, but when they talk about positive mindset and you talk about people doing this and being productive. It's those times where you have to kind of like say, come on, move on, next step. And this, it's like, I think I had some really, really bad decisions when I used to box. It's got a lot better now. But, but there are some officials that kind of like styles, what they call it, unconscious, biased. Sure, I love a counter boxer. I think they're so clever, they're brilliant. But also on the other hand, I love a come forward fighter. The short arm shots, the coming forward, the pressing. I have to try and think, right, it's not me, it's not my style, it's these boxers. Let's focus on these boxers. I just cut it down. Who's landing the punches? Red lands a punch, red's a winning. Blue lands a punch is equal. Blue lands a punch, he's winning. Or red lands a punch. She's winning. I kind of break it down, break it down, break it down, break it down. I think it's so easy, I think it's so easy because you're sitting there watching two people compete and it's, it's like if they hit them, they're winning. Did they defend that? Yes. Did they land punches? No. The other one's still winning. And I just break it down and break it down and break it down.

Adam Haniver [00:15:18]:
So how do you, what sort of communication do you have with the boxers, I mean, obviously you're not talking and narrating all the way through about, but how do you sort of keep good communications? How do you almost like manage that now?

Simon Mullan [00:15:31]:
What I've been finding now, the more experience you get, the more calm you are. I've, I've had a lot of mentors, people helping me along the way and I'm, like I said, I'm 48 now. I've been in boxing since I was 11. I don't know everything. I don't know, it's like 50% I'm, it's, I'm still learning, I'm still learning, I'm still learning. But what you, what you have to think about is that listen to other people. Take all that information in and add it to you. Again, the same as boxing. If you are fit, 90% of the bouts you can win on your first 10 to 20 bouts. Fitness, fitness, fitness. Work on the job, the job, the job, the job. Straight shots, then the hooks. Keep adding, keep adding, keep adding. So I kind of take that away and try to bring that into my refereeing. If the boxer's is holding. They say on the move, caution. Soft caution. So you say red, you're holding. Red, you're holding. Red, you're holding.

Adam Haniver [00:16:30]:
No, I've not heard that before on the move, obviously, caution. But I've not heard it on the move. Caution. That's interesting.

Simon Mullan [00:16:35]:
Yeah, so it's kind of like a soft caution. So you say because. Because mainly we want the boats to flow. Everybody's coming in to watch it. You don't want to stop. Stop, stop.

Adam Haniver [00:16:44]:
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Mullan [00:16:45]:
Box, Stop, box. You want to say, right, you're holding. Red, you're holding. If you said it twice, the third time say, stop. Red, you're holding. Come on, stop holding. Box. Then the same. Blue, you're leaning in blue. Keep your head up. So they're trying to make it flow. Some people can do it, some people can't. But I think as we're going along now, a lot of the more experience you get, the more calmer I think you can be, especially on internationals. You go away on internationals, and I'm learning. I'm very raw with international boxing. It's only been the last two years that I've been going away, and those boxers are elite boxes. They know the rules. They will try and pinch every slightly. They want to get the most advantage. So they try to pinch. They hold, they push, they pull. And it's like, blue, you're holding, blue, stop pushing. Blue, you're slapping. Just tell them, tell them, tell them. They. They want to be there. They want to compete. Leave and fight. Leave them box. I shouldn't say fight. Leave a box. That's. That's how I think about it. Anyway.

Adam Haniver [00:17:53]:
So what. What level of official are you? At the moment?

Simon Mullan [00:17:56]:
I'm an AIBA one star. So it's been a couple of years now, but with the world boxing and everything going on, I don't know what's happening. So nobody kind of really knows what's happening. Yeah, we go away. And there's some countries that you go to, England Boxing have a very good setup. England boxing are some of the best referees and judges in the world. Without a doubt, you go away, and if you're a one star, you were the equivalent to a three star in a different country. You will know going to championships yourself with boxers, the level that England Boxing and the invigilators and the evaluators, they. They keep it to a very high standard. So a one star, I'm a one star. I will go away and the three stars will look down at me. And then all I think Is right, I'm going to get in the ring and I'm just gonna referee this belt. How I see it. It's simple. Are they following the rules? Yes. Are they breaking the rules? Yes. Stop them. Caution. If you're cautioning, cautioning, caution up, giving them warning. But then you see other countries and it's like, oh, this is so frustrating. So I think you have to kind of take every bout as you can and just keep developing, keep developing and keep developing.

Adam Haniver [00:19:18]:
Is, Is there a style then? So, for example, when you might say, English boxes have a style, Cubans have a style, Mexicans have a style, whatever, is there a certain style of refereeing then that you could almost go -that seems quite how their coaching, excuse me, how they're refereeing seems quite indicative of that country.

Simon Mullan [00:19:39]:
Yeah, yeah. Some. Some like Kazakhstan, they're tough. They are tough. They, they will fight Cuba. Boxers, showmen, show women. They, they different styles. The, the English, English boxers, we're up there 100% up there. The GB team, when you go away, they can win pretty much every tournament if they're on the game. And then when it comes to the officiating, you look at some officials and think, bloody hell, he's a good official, she's a good official. And, and I think it's. It's like somebody told me, you've got to be invisible in that ring and let the boxers do the boxing. It's about them, leave them to it. So if you can get through about without having to say anything, that's good. It's not about me. So I bring this into club show boxing. So if I'm in the club show and the kids and they're having a good old scrap, I'll say, stop, you're messy, you're holding. Get back to boxing, you know, and this is just, I think, grassroots. Then when it comes up a little bit, then you have to start holding the rules a bit more firmer. And then once you get to the national titles, you know, these boxes should know the rules.

Adam Haniver [00:20:51]:
So and so is there kind of. So, for example, if you were saying, let's say a German referee speaking about English referees.

Simon Mullan [00:20:59]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:20:59]:
Are they likely say. Are they likely to say English referees are a bit too much like this or not enough like that? Or if an English is talking about, I don't know, Chinese referees, Chinese referees tend to be a bit more like this or a bit more like that. You know, just looking that. Are there certain characteristics of different.

Simon Mullan [00:21:14]:
I, would say, I would say everything that I view, everything that I view it on people going away, they never, ever say anything bad about the English officials. We are taught that it's, it's red or blue. So I just take that with me. So if I'm in a different country, if, if it's England boxing, America or England box in Germany. If, if England are in red and red are landing more punches, red's going to win the boat. If blue is landing more punches on red, blue is going to win the belt. I just keep it simple, stupid. That's what I, that's what I think. Keep it simple, stupid. Yeah. Academically, I would say I struggled all the way through my career. Academically, I've done my degree, I've done my teacher training, I've done my advanced apprenticeship. I've done everything, but I've struggled on, on everything I've done. The same with coaching. Coaching, I find simple because if you tell somebody they need to be fit, you just get fit. If they're not eating right, eat right. It starts simple, but I think stretching, cooling down, warming up, all this is new. When I was, when I was boxing, cool down. Stretching. What the hell was that? It's just, you get in there, run six miles, skip 30 minutes, punch six rounds on the bags, go on the pads, spar, finish off of the circuit, go home, do the same the next day. Do the same the next day. Yeah. How was your weight? How was your weight? Yeah, it's okay. Don't eat, don't drink. Times have changed. Times have changed.

Adam Haniver [00:22:49]:
So, so what about certification then? So when you. So coming up as a referee, what does the whole training and certification process look like? And you've just mentioned, you know, times have changed, so perhaps it does look a lot bit. The education process looks different now to when maybe you started.

Simon Mullan [00:23:06]:
We talk about, we do CPD. You work at the college as well. We do CPD and we talk about positive mindsets, we talk about, you know, structure. It's all about development. And, you know, it's. You continually trying to think of new ways to, to evolve, make things a little bit easier, make things a little bit better, you know? Yeah. Kind of lost my chain of thought against these.

Adam Haniver [00:23:33]:
Oh, no, that's definitely my world. You're definitely in my world. But it's like how the, it's like how the, the education and certification training process for an official.

Simon Mullan [00:23:43]:
Yes.

Adam Haniver [00:23:44]:
Is that sort of, Is that changed a lot over the years? Has it remained the same?

Simon Mullan [00:23:48]:
Well, luckily enough, I'm, I'm down as a England Boxing educator now, so I've been delivering the courses for the last two, two and a half years. For officials.

Adam Haniver [00:23:59]:
Okay.

Simon Mullan [00:24:00]:
So. So for Eastern Counties, I was lucky enough and honoured to be voted in as lead official for eastern counties. So any new training comes through, I train new officials. I try to say, keep it simple. It's red, it's blue, red landing more punches. They're winning, obviously, as long as they're not infringing the rules. They're not pulling, they're not slapping, they're not holding. Keep it simple. Just watch this. It should be the most simplest job on the planet, sitting there watching two people that want to be in there boxing. Is red landing punches without infringing the rules? Yes. Red should be winning. Is blue holding? Are they breaking the rules? They should be warned, done. Don't score those shots. So I bring it in and we do education, the education of it. I try and say, look, you're here because you want to be here. Enjoy it. You have to enjoy it. If you go to a club show, we all volunteer, we all do it for free. So if we turn it up, doing the show, enjoy it. Talk to people, tell. Discuss it. Discuss amongst yourselves. Oh, I thought that boxer won this. Okay. Why? But I thought he went the other way because they were slapping. Well, the referee didn't say anything. Yeah, but you were judging. You were judging that. If you think it was a good shot, whether the referee said yes or no, you should score that or not score that. If that kind of makes sense.

Adam Haniver [00:25:25]:
It does. So what would you say is the most challenging part then, of not just being a referee in the ring? Being a referee, the whole thing getting to shows, the appointment of who goes to what shows who's doing what. The whole part of being a referee is not just the performance part. What are the challenges of being a referee?

Simon Mullan [00:25:43]:
The challenges are you need to have thick skin. You need to have thick skin because whatever you were doing, you're going to upset 50% of the crowd because there's two people competing. So, my perspective is, are they following the rules? Are they infringing the rules? Are they deserving to be winning? If they are doing that, then if you upset the coaches in the corner, then so be it. If you upset people in the crowd. I'd stopped boxers, they always say, stop the fight. One punch, then one punch later, parents would come up and he'd go, my son was okay. I go, your son's got a black eye. He goes, yeah, but he was winning. I said, yeah, but he was winning, but look at his eye. I say, what would the next one have done? I say, you should be coming up to me and thanking me for looking after your son. Not saying, he could have done this, he could have done that. The kid knows, or he or she is in and some boxers will come up to me and say, thanks, Ref, you've done the right thing. There's. They know. Then you hear them after going, yeah, I would have been all right. I could have done this. And I go, yes, okay, it's okay. You can have the bravado. You can have the talk. We know. And you know, you know, just pick yourself up, go again. Pick yourself up, go again. If you get hurt and then you go home and you think, bloody hell, I can't do that again. Is the referee doing their job? You know, I think that if it was my son, if it was my daughter, if they're getting hit and it looks as if they're sickening shots, I'm like, I'm going to stop the boat. I don't care if I upset people. Yeah, it hurts my feelings. I'm driving home thinking, I'll just give up all my time for this. And I've got called a bald this and something that, and look at your bloody nose on you. And I'm thinking, that's personal. Why are you doing that? I just looked after your boxer. Do you know what I mean? You know, you can.

Adam Haniver [00:27:39]:
You can only look after what's happening then. You can't. You can't look off. You can't look out for what might happen in 10 seconds, can you? So it's like, no, at the moment this person is getting hurt, I'll stop it now. As opposed to, well, I think this kid's quite fit and looks quite tough. So I'll let it go a little.

Simon Mullan [00:27:54]:
Yeah, leave it go. I'd be okay. What I look at, right? I boxed this lad. Oh, he could hit. He could hit. He had. I think he had 45 fights. Won 43. Okay, he could hit. He could bloody hit. Anyway, he caught me with a shot on the. Smack on the chin. I was fine. I had an eight count. Okay. I thought, I'm okay. 20 seconds later, he caught me in the stomach. My God, I thought my lungs were going to come out. And I was like, this is when I needed the count. Not that punch there. But did the referee do anything wrong? No, he didn't. But what we're trying to get at is, like, if the referee thinks you're getting hurt, they're going to give you a count. Sometimes the boxes, I say, just take the count. One, two, three. I know, if you're okay, if you're okay, you're going to carry on. If you're wandering around, wobbling on the floor, you know, it's a little bit different. You're going to get stopped, you know, But I always, I always think about that time when I was there and, and I, I was, I grabbed on this lad and I was like, I'm going to be sick. He caught me right in the solar plexus and, and it was a sickening shot and I was like, if, if I need a count, this is it. So when I'm refereeing, if I see somebody holding and holding and holding in my head, I'm thinking, is he struggling here? Have he got caught with a shot that I haven't seen? Is he injured? I'd stop, give him a count, ask it, you okay? Did you get caught? Then they'd say, as a referee, you should use forwards command, stop, box, time break. Okay, but you have to communicate. You have to communicate, you know, are you okay? Did you get caught with a shot? The crowd was shouting the other day, it was a low blow, low blow, low blow, low blow. So I stopped, I said afterwards, I didn't think it was a low blow. I didn't think it was a low blow. So I let it carry on. Crowd is going mad. It's a low blow, It's a low blow, low blow. After the boat finished, the lad lost. I went up to him, I said, was it a low blow? He said, no, he said he caught me about right on the stomach. He said, it really hurt. That's why I turned over and, and I said, thanks for that. I said, thank you for that. Tell your family that it wasn't a low blow because they were just, they were just throwing all abuse at me. They throwing abuse at me. But as a new official coming through, you're gonna get that. And, And I think you just have to kind of think, okay, it's not their fault. They don't know. That's how I think. Now when they say, just be dumb, I'd just be dumb. So somebody says, oh, how do you feel about that? I go, I don't. I'm just dumb. I'm dumb to it. Kind of numb. So you should have done this. You should have done that. Yeah, should haves and could haves don't count. I'd done what I thought was Right, done. Berate me for it. You know, under pressure.

Adam Haniver [00:30:50]:
Under pressure. In a moment with time restrictions, you know, with people screaming in shouting at you, you can only see what you can see.

Simon Mullan [00:30:57]:
Yeah. 100. I watched a video the other day. Somebody sent me through. I'm mentoring a few people sent me a video for. He said, oh, do you think they should have given a count then? I said, personally, yes. But I said, look at the video. I said, you stood the other side. I said, the video is filming from this side. I said, you didn't see that? And he goes, yeah, yeah. I just heard the crowd shouting and shouting. I said, it's the same as if you're judging. If you don't see a punch landing, you don't score it. So I said, yes, I would have given a count, but if I was refereeing there, I might not have seen that. I'm looking at it from this angle and that's what a lot of people don't realize. You're watching the videos, you're watching where they filmed, but you were seeing it from a total different angle to that referee and the judges.

Adam Haniver [00:31:45]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Mullan [00:31:47]:
They say about split decisions, if you have a split decision, you. Okay, yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:31:53]:
I'm literally a frog on my throat. I think it's a massive frog in the throat.

Simon Mullan [00:31:56]:
Yeah. So if you have split decisions, if you've got judge five judges, you've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Yeah, 2 and 3 sat together. If it's a split decision and 2 and 3 are seeing the same thing, that's. That's 100 fit. Because they're seeing it from a different angle to the other judges. So sometimes when people come up to me and they say, what do you think about that bout? I try to not give my opinion. I'll say, if you want an honest opinion, you might.

Adam Haniver [00:32:27]:
But if there were five of you. So if there were five of you cloned.

Simon Mullan [00:32:30]:
Yes, yes.

Adam Haniver [00:32:32]:
As a judge, not as a referee.

Simon Mullan [00:32:33]:
Yeah. But you see, you're seeing it different from every angle and that's the different thing. You have to. You have to realize that you were seeing it from one angle of a.

Adam Haniver [00:32:44]:
Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but you mentioned. I'm just quite interested. Something you said a moment ago as well. You mentioned that someone sent you a video and said, would you have given a count to this? Do you have. In your boxing, in your officiatings community, do you do that quite a lot of each other?

Simon Mullan [00:32:57]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:32:57]:
Send a little video and say, what would you do? What would you do? So tell me what that might be.

Simon Mullan [00:33:01]:
Like what we basically do is when I tell people, if you go to championships, if you go to any show, there's going to be cameras, people are going to be watching. If you do something majorly wrong, then it's going to be all over Tik-tok, it's going to be on YouTube. Referees done this, referee's done that, you've got a, you've got to think or get out of that ring thinking, did I do everything to my best capability in that? And, and if you think yes, then, then all the videos don't really count as long all you can do is your best. I think somebody told me a quote before the headmaster said, only the best is good enough for you. Only. And I was like, oh, I was thinking about him thinking about it, Only the best is good enough for you. If you, if you think you're doing the best job you can do, sit back, could I have done this? Could I have done that? I watch all the videos of championships where I've been refereeing and, and I am reflective, I reflect on a lot of stuff and I think, oh, yeah, my foot position is a bit wrong. The England boxing invigilators, they come out, evaluate us, they're telling us like, they say, this is a hard job because sitting outside is quite easy to pick up errors and errors and errors and errors. Oh, you stood there, you've done this wrong. You didn't say this, you didn't say that. But they are just trying to give you a little snippet of that. They've got 30 seconds with it, 30, 40 seconds with them saying, look, work on this, do this. If you were listening and you were trying to improve on it, you know you're going to be really good. But if you think right, I know this, they're wrong. Are you ever going to get better? Nobody likes to be told they're doing something wrong, do they? If you tell a box that they're doing something wrong coaching, they say, well, not, not you can do it, I can do it. It comes into an argument straight away, doesn't it? So they say, okay, take what somebody's trying to give you. If they're trying to give you advice, even if it's a little bit negative, work on it, turn that around into a positive. I say, with the new judges, you were going to go to shows, they're going to be scrappy bouts, grassroots shows, so messy, some of them are so messy. And it's, I'm sitting there thinking, I've got 50p in my pocket, I'll have to flip for heads or tails, which one's going to win this. And that's why when they say about having a 50-50 record, sometimes it is down to that. The little kids, when they're 11, 12, they're like little whirlwinds. You see the referee just trying to stay out the bloody way of it and it's quite hard.

Adam Haniver [00:35:26]:
Oh, yeah, 40 kilos punching like. Yeah, they're punching that lighting.

Simon Mullan [00:35:31]:
Somebody says to me, oh, what would you rather? I'd rather do a super heavyweight in the national final than I would a 50 kilo bloody 10 bouter. This is so difficult. It's like. But this is where, this is where you learn. This is where you learn.

Adam Haniver [00:35:46]:
So also when you're at, you know, you're at a club show and maybe you've only got one referee's turned up, you know, because, you know, you get stretched, don't you, as officials and you've got to do 18 bouts in a row. Sometimes it just happens like that. Obviously you're going to get tired, you know. Yeah, there's an interval and all that sort of stuff. How do you manage yourself? And I think I, I think I asked this to Kate as well. How did you. How do you manage yourself when you're absolutely shattered and you've still got, you know, four or five bouts left, you're on your 13th bout already. How do you sort of manage that?

Simon Mullan [00:36:18]:
Sometimes when you finish work, you know, I'm teaching all day, so sometimes I finish work. Ah, by the time Friday comes out, I'm shattered. So I think, right, go to the show. Oh, there's only me there. I'm going to do 22 bouts tonight. What I try to do is the first bout deserves all my attention as equal as the very last bout. Basically. I try and keep fit. I try and drink plenty of liquid. I try and keep healthy. The same as coaching. I try to do, as I would say to other people, be fit. If you're fitter, if you're on your feet all day and if you're doing stuff, if you're unfit, you're going to struggle. It's really, it's really difficult. But I sometimes have to take myself outside, have a bit of fresh air and say, come on, this bout is going to be important. This bout is. Every bout they say to us when we have briefings, this is their Olympics, this is their Olympic finals. I think that about grassroots. 

I went to the boxing tournament in Spain the other week, doing elite champions from all over the world come back the following Friday. I've done a show and I'd done 18 bouts as timekeeper to let other people referee. Then the following day I go to a show and I referee five skills bouts. But they are just as important as these international. Sure, as these internationals, in my opinion. So that's what I keep thinking to myself. Whenever I'm feeling a little bit tired, if I feel tired, I would say to the supervisor, supervisor, look, I need to have a drink, I need to get out. Just give me a couple of minutes, let me have some fresh air. Because a change is as good as a rest, they say. So just by walking outside, getting some fresh air, going over, having a cup of tea, have a drink of water, you know, if you are struggling, tell people you're struggling. That's how I look at it. If you're doing a show and you and the crowd are like, oh, come on, ref, come on, ref, come on, ref. Say, look, I've just done 18 bouts, I need to get out, I need to have a wee. I need to come back in because I need to look after this boxer as good as I did in the first bout. So it is difficult and we're trying to get as many officials as we can coming through, but it's a difficult task because you're putting yourself in the firing line.

Adam Haniver [00:38:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of people don't have thick skin, do they? They don't have that thick skin.

Simon Mullan [00:38:46]:
Oh, do you know what? I used to, like, take it really hard. I'd be like, call me this, call me that. I'm like, I would have rather they come up and give me a punch in the lip or something because the physical side of it doesn't bother me, but the emotional side of it, like somebody saying something really nasty to me, I'd be like, oh, damn it. That's affected me more than them kicking me in the, you know, in the privates or something. You know what I mean?

Adam Haniver [00:39:12]:
You should never referee again in your day, in your life.

Simon Mullan [00:39:15]:
Yeah. And you're like, oh, my God. Come on, you have a go. Yeah, but it's what, it's one of those things. It's, it's part of it. Every job you do, there's always one aspect of it that you dislike. But what, what they say is coaching. If you've got somebody that hates pull ups, what have they got to do? Pull ups? If somebody hates running, what have they got to do? They've got to run. I used to get body shots of body shots. Body shots. Everybody that they used to box, he was like, eating it hard. He can. It's thinking, oh, my poor stomach's gonna have it tonight. Oh, I can take it in the head. I'm not worried. Just hit me in the head, not in the body. And. And it was at the time I used to jump in with this guy. His name was David Anderson. Bloody hell. He could hit. He's a pro. Oh, he could hit. And. And his father used to say, test his. Test his body, Dave, test his body. And I go in. I go in the change room at 15, I put my gum shield in and I'm like crying, thinking, no. But then afterwards, it made me stronger. It made me a lot stronger. So, David, test his body. And I'd be like, those words. I think I got PTSD from it. Test his body, test his body, test his body. But when I take that into. I think of all little scenarios. I'm there, we're talking. I've got little cartoons going on in my head now. I can visualize me being punched in that round. I can visualize me putting my gum shield in the toilet, thinking, oh, why am I here? Do you know what I mean? So what I do, I have compassion. And when I'm watching the boxes up, if I see their face and they screw that point and they're like, oh, they were hurting, I'll stop and count them. Because I would rather stop and count and ask them, are they okay? And then the crowd shout at me, saying, what's that for, ref? Oh, you're blind. You can't see that. I'm checking that that boxer is safe, whatever you want.

Adam Haniver [00:41:10]:
But the problem is boxers. Boxers think this because they don't really have the conversation with the coaches, and coaches think this, that a standing count is a punishment.

Simon Mullan [00:41:18]:
No, a standing count is to protect you. A standing count is looking after you. You know, that's why they give so many in the round. It's different with schools. It's different with the younger kids because you give two counts in a round. You're stopping a bout. So you have to be very. You know, this needs to be educated in the gyms. You know, this is a school, school boy, school girl bout. If you get caught, if you were running away, if you were not throwing punches back, you're going to get a count. You have two of them. It's going to be stopped. Sometimes you can see some referees and they'll be watching, watching, watching. And they'll be a little bit scared to give a count because they know if they give one more, they stop in the bout. So this is where the grassroots needs to be enforced really highly. And this is where you do your learning. So when you come to the championships, you're going to be good. It's like, yes, okay, I lost it. But I wasn't throwing any punches back. I was leaning on the ropes. I can see why the referee thought I was injured. I can see why the judges scored against me. I weren't doing anything. If you're in there to survive, everybody can see you surviving.

Adam Haniver [00:42:24]:
Yeah.

Simon Mullan [00:42:25]:
So that's why they say, you know, back-foot boxers, they can still win every bout they have back-foot boxers. I think it's. They're so clever, but if somebody's coming forward, coming forward, coming forward, if they're not punching, they're not winning. So. So it swings and roundabouts. People see, they have unconscious bias and they're watching and watching and watching. And you're thinking, think of you in the opposite corner. Did you think that boxer deserved to win or do you think your boxer deserved to win? And I think this is all comes down to education. I think you can constantly doing new stuff. You're trying new ways of teaching, you're trying to do new ways of coaching. And I think that's the same with everything you do in life. If you think you've made it, that's when you fail. You have to continuously reflect on what you're doing. You're not gonna. We're all human. We're not. We're not perfect. Am I going to miss a count? Yes. Am I going to give a count too early? Maybe. But is it going to be the end of the world? That's how I look at it. That's what I think. Absolutely. And that's what I say to boxers, coaching. If you're training, you're training, you train your training. Some boxes, they push themselves and push yourselves, and you're like, hang on a minute, you were doing too much. Lewis used to train and he would train and train and train. And I used to say, right, we're meeting up and we meet up and we go for a walk. He'd say, are we training? I said, no, you've done too much. And he go walking. I go, yeah, you're chatting to me. We're gonna have a talk.

Adam Haniver [00:43:52]:
I find your relationship with Lewis, I found that was very interesting because when I was working with England, you, you'd come across, you'd come along and obviously Lewis was there and he was religiously there. Lewis always struck me, I don't know Lewis very well, but did you know, sort of known reasonably well. Not I know a little bit, shall we say. It always struck me as he had one of the best work ethics you could possibly have, you know, which came to which obviously is now amounted to, you know, a bronze medal in the Olympics. And I think I said, said this to him a couple of years back. I said to him, I didn't think you'd be one of those that would be pushing on GB and moving forward. I think it was on a podcast with someone else. I just didn't see you as one of those that were in the picture at the time because of other boxers around and all that. And he sort of point, kind of agreed and understood where I was coming from. Yeah, but look where we are now in 2025, you know, he's a bronze medalist in the Olympics. The highest, you know, the highest thing you can possibly do in the sport. He had always had a great work ethic. But you're also telling me that you had to some rein them in. So we're going to go for a walk today. So tell me about, tell me about that sort of maybe a little bit of ying and yang there perhaps. Well, but basically not ying and yang, but just tell me how that works.

Simon Mullan [00:45:14]:
Well, funny enough, right, we talk about this and we talk about this all the time. If somebody wants to tell it was he can't do something, that's the best thing for me, would be the best thing for me because if they say he can't make the weight, he'll make that weight. That's his mindset. I, I was generally worried that he was going down to 71 kilos. He was 75 kilos for 10 years.

Adam Haniver [00:45:42]:
How tall is he? Six. Got his six one.

Simon Mullan [00:45:44]:
He's six two. Six two.

Adam Haniver [00:45:46]:
Bloody hell. Yeah.

Simon Mullan [00:45:48]:
And, and then they said, he phoned me up, he said, Simon I'm gonna eight months. He said eight months. I'm gonna try 71 kilos. I said, please, please. If you feel weak, if you feel ill or you can't take a shot, stop. And he knows that I 100% care for him. He could be in a world final, boxing for a world title, unified any belts. If I thought he was getting hurt, I would stop it, I would pull it out and he's got that behind in his mind. He knows that I would look after him. And I think that is 90, 99% of coaches. They have to. They care about their boxes. So If he's doing stuff, I would say, Lewis, calm down a bit. You sparred yesterday. You sparred there. You spot there, you spot there. One day you're not going to lose your fitness, you're not going to lose your sharpness, because this one day, it's better to have one day off than one week injured or one week off than one month injured, you know, because your body's a machine. And he looks after himself. Unbelievable. Never, ever once had to worry about his weight. If he said he was 75, you could check the scales with his weights. He could go to championships and never forget. We entered one championships, we took him down, and he was 75.2. And I said, scales are wrong. And they said, no, they're not. I said, those scales are 100% wrong. I said, he's under 75. And they said, no, no, no. As we walked out, he went to skip, and then a couple of coaches come in and they said, where's he off? I said, oh, he's got to skip off 200. And they said, the scales are wrong. This is. Our coaches said the scales must be wrong. I said, 100%. They weighed in heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy. His scales was wrong. I 100% knew the scales are wrong. Because if he said he was 75 kilos, he's 75 kilos. And that's an art. Do you know? I think that's an art. But when it, when it comes down to the training wise, it's, it's funny because he's a very educated, clever lad. Like you said, when he'd done all the England stuff and we used to go down to Billericky and you'd be there doing the.nutrients. He kind of studies what he's doing. Reflection. He reflects, writes a journal. How many boxes, you know, Write journals. He writes a journal. You know, he's done his master's degree while he's training for the Olympics.

Adam Haniver [00:48:29]:
That's crazy.

Simon Mullan [00:48:31]:
Yeah. The dissertation, the dissertation that he done. You know how hard it is doing the dissertation. He done a dissertation on holding an international boxing event, GB with World Boxing. Used 80% of his dissertation to hold the World Boxing event in Sheffield. That's, you know, he deserves a medal anyway, if he, if he finishes today, he's. He's already succeeded.

Adam Haniver [00:48:56]:
So. So would you say then that good coaching, good refereeing is relationship.

Simon Mullan [00:49:06]:
100% If you know boxers and you know how they tick. You know, if somebody's having a bad day. Yeah, we see these boxes week in, week out. Week in, week out. I, I can. I could talk to some boxes. Isaac Oko on the GB scene, he said to me, he said, you know what? I entered the national championship because you said I could win it. And he did win it, you know, and then we went away in the box arm. And he said, you know what? Si. He said. I went. He said, I only entered the nationals because you said I could win it. And I was like, you know, nothing from his coaches. His coaches are brilliant and they're pushing him, pushing him. But it just took one, one word from somebody outside to say, you can win this. And this is pretty good. Like, I would never ever say anything bad about any other coaches because they've got their style, they've got their techniques. Some things work, some things don't work. But that's why it's good to have different kind of yin and yang. You see, it works. Opposites attract, and it does work. So people. I went away, I was in. I think it was Finland, and Cindy Nakumbu come up to me and she said, are you Lewis Richardson's coach? And I said, yeah. And she said, I've never put you two together. She said, you told the opposite. And I said, why is that? She said, because you. You were joking, you were laughing, you were silly. No, not disrespectful. But she said you were fun. Not as in, say, Lewis ain't fun, but he's professional. And she said, I'd never see you two together. And that always sticks in my head. Are you Lewis's coach? Yeah, I'm Lewis's coach. There's a lot of other people that have coached Lewis. There's a lot of other people. It's about not being stubborn and saying, I know better. If another coach is seeing Lewis and he can improve, I wouldn't say, don't listen to him. I'd say, that's some good advice, eh? It's about growing. It's about mind growth. It's about taking something and saying, is an apple on a tree. It's gonna take that. That's nice and juicy. I love that. It's another little bit of information. It's another. Another good bit of advice.

Adam Haniver [00:51:09]:
So you obviously never heard of the Garden of Eden, though, have you?

Simon Mullan [00:51:12]:
No, no, no. Like I said, I'm very uneducated don't you start wandering me off somewhere now.

Adam Haniver [00:51:22]:
I'm pulling religion in.

Simon Mullan [00:51:24]:
What the hell we. Now the thing is with, the thing is with boxing and coaching and if I hadn't have been coaching, I don't think I would have done officiating. I still think I could still compete. I couldn't. I know I couldn't. I take, I ache. But we still want to do what we love. So try to take the positive energy off everybody. When somebody's jumping around the ring and they've winning, I love it when somebody's sad and upset because they've just lost. I kind of feel that as well, but I kind of try and I kind of want to like not give them a hug. I'm sounding like I'm really bloody soft here. Physical wise, anything physical is nothing to me. Anything emotional is hard. Emotional. Emotional feeling. Somebody saying this, somebody saying, ah, somebody doing this. It's very difficult. So I know that you and other the development squads and they are trying to bring, you know, talking, communicating, you know, if you're having a bad day, tell somebody having a bad day. Does that make sense? Soo with a coaching, if somebody comes in and says to you, Adam, I can't train today, I feel really. No, you will train straight away. I'm thinking, okay, is he, is he generally down? Is he or she down? Is it because of this? You know, have they trained hard last week? Have they pushed it? People get run down, you know, maybe they're not eating, maybe they're not sleeping. I think, okay, if somebody comes up to you and says, look, I don't really want to train today, okay, don't train, come in the gym, do the time for me, you know, help the other kid, take them on the pads, you know, just keep them there. So it's not because if somebody tells you to do something, natural defense is to say, no, I'm not going to do that. Yeah, so like the enjoyment come in, you're part of the team. It's an individual sport, but it's in the gym. You see, I went away to Bosnia for the European schools and the team, the England team, the young kids and the girls and the boys, it was a joy to be around. They were laughing, they were joking, they were having a little bit of fun with each other. They were serious, they were supporting each other. I thought that kind of warm warmed my heart into saying, yeah, this is the right thing. I'm doing this. I can take all this negative ref, you're crap. Look at your freaking nose. You couldn't have been very good. You must have got hit. And I think I see them on the bus traveling to the tournament and they laughing. They're joking, enjoying it. And I think, what a buzz. What a buzz. Do you know what I mean?

Adam Haniver [00:54:08]:
I know exactly. Couple of things. Couple of things for you, mate. Firstly, I've wrote down a couple of Simon Mullan quotes here. Compassion. They're there to enjoy it, so why make it worse? Guess what?  Guess what I'm thinking. That's getting slapped right on the title of this. This podcast, and I love that. And I think. I think that quote there, compassion, they're there to enjoy it. So my, why make it worse? It does summarize a lot of your approach to coaching, to officiating very well, I think so. I really like that. And I also want to commend you for using a Paula Abdul quote, which is opposites attract as well.

Simon Mullan [00:54:46]:
We talked about this, didn't we? Because it's not unusual.

Adam Haniver [00:54:49]:
I'm not bringing the world singing into it.

Simon Mullan [00:54:51]:
No, no. Because I can't bloody sing. I tell you what, I listen to this podcast now because I listen to quite a few podcasts and I think you learn quite a lot. And it could be just one little thing.  One little word, one little comment. And if that resonates in your mind and it gives you thinking, that's a good thing. You know, you're doing a good job and it's quite difficult to talk to people. And like I say, I drift off, I wander off. I can talk more. My parents say I can talk for Wales. Do you know what I mean? Also, I just.

Adam Haniver [00:55:25]:
Your meanders are fun, though. You have a good meander.

Simon Mullan [00:55:29]:
Yeah. I wandered off and I'm like, bloody hell. What somebody said to me before is, when you're in the ring, you need to be walking around as if you're, like, in the field picking daisies. And you're just looking, the sun's on your back. You just want to be walking around gradually. Yeah, Daffodils, love. Dafs. You're walking around and you're just moseying around and you're just staying out the way. You're having fun. You just, oh, this is brilliant.  And I always. I'm thinking, Christ, this ring's got daisies grown out of it now. My visualization is weird.

Adam Haniver [00:56:03]:
Maybe someone. Someone slipped something in. Voltaire, I think.

Simon Mullan [00:56:06]:
I know. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, could be. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:56:09]:
So, I mean, listen, mate, it's been absolute blast. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah, you warned me in the meandering, but these were, these were lovely meanders, mate. They're lovely.

Simon Mullan [00:56:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:56:18]:
And they always. These meanders always go places, though. That's the thing. So it's really enjoyable, mate. And like I said, I love that. Be compassionate. They're there to enjoy it, so why make it worse? So that's fantastic. Simon, thanks very much, mate. Thanks very much for your passion, for your expertise, for your experience, and thanks for everything, mate.

Simon Mullan [00:56:37]:
Okay, thank you very much, Adam.

Adam Haniver [00:56:39]:
Cheers, mate.

Simon Mullan [00:56:39]:
Okay, Thanks a lot.