Adam Haniver [00:00:00]:
So the real big question, pad work. How do we make pad work a lot more effective? I've got the pleasure of inviting on Elliot Dillon and Steve Cranston, two of my DICE colleagues, just to talk about that, talk about their experience and how they bring pad work to the fore and how they use it to make better boxes, not just to be better at pad work. So I hope you really enjoy this episode. We had a great conversation for over an hour about this. It could have gone on for another two, three hours, and there's just so much to talk about, around how we can make this better. But, also, what we think pad work maybe isn't and the levels of skill transfer that we think it has, but maybe it doesn't. So we talked around how we can kinda get around that and make those pads more effective. 

Next week, our pad work course drops. We have got so many videos, so much explanation, so much support and knowledge and resources there for you in this course, well over eight hours' worth on the course of, like I say, explainer videos, samples, examples, a little bit of structure and framework to help you as well, some ideas that you can try on your gym, but also talking about the science and the perception action, the ecological dynamics, all these, important things, that affects pad work and just trying to really kinda pick out how we can do this better in the coursework. I hope you really like it, guys. My name is Adam Haniver, and this is the Box Gathering Podcast.


Adam Haniver [00:01:40]:
Alright. Let's start there then. Episode one hundred and nine, Box Gathering Podcast. Two absolutely beautifully esteemed guests have come on. One of them is a reoccurring guest, mister Elliot Dillon.

Elliot Dillon [00:02:08]:
The second appearance, isn't it?

Adam Haniver [00:02:09]:
This is your second appearance. You can't get enough, can you, mate? Go on then. Give us an intro to anyone out there in the boxing world who may not know you.

Elliot Dillon [00:02:17]:
Okay. So for those that don't know me, I'm Elliot Dillon. I am previously the lead tutor and coach for the Joe Gallagher Boxing Academy, which was, or is the performance centre for boxing within England Boxing for the DiSE, England talent pathway coached, England at GB, currently a GB Performance Coach, Coach Educator as well, and amateur coach.

Adam Haniver [00:02:39]:
And also starred in the film 300.

Steve Cranston [00:02:41]:
Lovely, Elliott.

Adam Haniver [00:02:42]:
Right. Cheers, mate. Steve O. I've got Steve Cranston here, and if people don't know him, well, you will now. Go ahead.

Steve Cranston [00:02:49]:
Well, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people who might not know me because most of the people that know me are probably dead.

Adam Haniver [00:02:55]:
It's a beautiful start.

Steve Cranston [00:02:57]:
No. I've been a coach a long time. Been a coach since 1982, actually. Done my level one, the assistant coach from course in 1982. I'm a level four coach. Had fifteen years on the DiSE program, ACE and DiSE program at Gateshead College and then retired head coach at my club, which is Kenton ABC, and I'm a coach educator.

Adam Haniver [00:03:18]:
That's cool. Just to throw this in there for you, Steve. I had 1982 when you did your level one, I was three years old.

Steve Cranston [00:03:25]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:03:26]:
Just to stick that in there for you.

Steve Cranston [00:03:27]:
Well, I was, nearly 28. There you go. Understandably, that's how a lot of people are dead. Well, there will not be many coaches at my age still coaching actively probably in England Boxing.

Adam Haniver [00:03:40]:
Yeah. You're probably in the in the in the top 5%, Steve, I was there. And still doing pads go alright now. 

Steve Cranston [00:03:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I just had this conversation. When I was at Gateshead, I was probably doing about a hundred rounds a week. Club and college, and I did a lot of pads, specific pads, not just general pads. And, now I probably do 50 rounds a week, forty, fifty rounds a week maybe.

Adam Haniver [00:04:08]:
That's more than I do.

Steve Cranston [00:04:10]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:04:11]:
What about you, Els? How many how many are you still sort of heavy with the pads? 

Elliot Dillon [00:04:17]:
Yeah. I like the pads because that's like the time where you get to do a bit of one to one with them, you get a bit of trust, and you get to build a bit of rapport with the athletes, especially with the boxers, that type of stuff. And it is, as a coach, it is kind of my go to, I know, and I think this is most coaches. It's your go to sort of thing to do with boxers and sort of help that development, especially on a one to one sort of basis.

Adam Haniver [00:04:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think I think part of it is, you know, let's be honest. If we wanted the boxers get better, we'd spar all day every day, condition tech, open spar all day every day. But the bottom line is you can't get punched in the head all the time. There has to be an element of...

Elliot Dillon [00:04:56]:
We gotta get the safety involved there, aren't we?

Adam Haniver [00:05:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So if anyone listening at the moment is not guests at the moment, because I've not said that what the title is, we are talking about pad work today. Pad work, you mentioned at first you say you do some general pads, but then you said actually you like doing a lot more sort of specific stuff.

Steve Cranston [00:05:14]:
Yeah so so basically every boxer wants to do pads or they want to spar, they want to do the things that they think are good at, they don't want to do the things that we want them to do generally. And a lot of boxers don't want to do just a specific pad. They want to have a little bit rip roar on the pads. And often that I think I sometimes see that and I think is this pads for the coach or is it pads for the boxer? You know, and  I tend to think that initially with all pads, the boxer has to take priority and you have to be doing it for a reason.

Adam Haniver [00:05:43]:
What do you mean by that? What do you mean pads for the coach or pads for the boxer? I think I get what you mean but I'm not too sure.

Steve Cranston [00:05:49]:
Okay then, well, strangely, I was looking at some pads last week on Facebook and I tend not online and I tend not to have a go at anybody on pads where and we discussed this earlier where I would go that doesn't look very good because I don't know what they're wanting to achieve. So I don't know what this pad man wants to achieve with his boxer. So generally I wouldn't criticise anybody's pads whether I thought they were good or bad or whatever. However, there are sometimes you see coaches doing pads and I sometimes think it's possibly for the coach.

Adam Haniver [00:06:20]:
What's that look like?

Elliot Dillon [00:06:21]:
So would yeah. So would that be like because they're trying to do it for Instagram likes or social media likes? Or is that because there's a certain pattern they're doing or what?

Steve Cranston [00:06:30]:
Yeah. No. I think well, there's a point that, You know, I enjoy doing pads. You said that as well. I enjoy doing pads and I think my pads are quite good. Somebody else might look at a video of me doing pads and go, that's terrible. But then again, they might not know what I'm trying to get across. And I think, like, for some coaches, and some coaches have some great flair with the pads the way they throw their pads about. And I'm not a great lover of that specifically and especially not people who throw the pad at the boxer, especially not with young kids because often they're thrown the pad before the punches developed and and you can do some serious damage with little kids, you know. Little kids throw them the jab and the coach throws the pad at the jab and the jab the pad hits the fist before the punches actually developed and you do all sorts of damage. 

Elliot Dillon [00:07:10]:
So that as well we're also completely taken away from fundamentals there, aren't we? Do you know what I mean? We're really just like I mean...

Steve Cranston [00:07:18]:
Yeah. Definitely.

Adam Haniver [00:07:19]:
What would you say fundamentals are? Because it's an interesting question. Like, when you say fundamentals, I think everybody listening kinda knows what you mean. But I don't know if we ever really sort of say what are

Elliot Dillon [00:07:30]:
There's the technique in this. So can we get that fundamental technique on the punch right? You know what I mean? Are we getting the rotation right? Are we, teaching them where they're getting the power from? Are they developing that power through that kinetic chain? Do you have any sort of push up from the floor, up through the rotation of the hips, through the core, through the shoulders, fully extension on the arm? And we did looking at the recoil back, the more important side of it, and now we're getting that stability within the core. I mean, it's coming off balance. So why are they coming off balance? Can we, do we need to correct it? Do we need to address it? Are there weaknesses within that chain? do you know what I mean? And they are your fundamentals really aren't they. Just that technique and, we get that drive through the shots. And that's the good thing about pads is, as a coach, you get that feedback, don't you? When they hit it, when they hit it good, they can hear it. You feel it. And it's that instant feedback, isn't it?

Steve Cranston [00:08:20]:
That's a great point that, Elliot, because what you've just laid out there, the fundamentals, you wouldn't have to be a very good pad man. You'd have to understand the fundamentals, but you wouldn't have to be a very good pad man. Get that across to your boxer.

Adam Haniver [00:08:32]:
Yeah. Because you could not be able to hold a pad and have the worst shoulders and elbows and wrist ever.

Steve Cranston [00:08:37]:
And still flared pad man, you know, and I'm coming back to that.

Elliot Dillon [00:08:40]:
We don't need it really because you can you don't need the basics. You don't need it.

Adam Haniver [00:08:44]:
Is it interesting that, so you meant so, your a lot of your background, and you've got a wide background, haven't you? But a lot of your background is kind of physiology, it's, S and C, I think you you have a master's in S and C, is that right?

Elliot Dillon [00:08:57]:
Yeah, master's in strength and condition, yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:08:59]:
So so it's almost like when you talk about technique, it's what's the difference between almost technique and the the kinematics of a punch, you know, the the the from the floor to the fist, that kind of thing, You know, the the drive, the triple extension, all these massive pieces.

Elliot Dillon [00:09:16]:
They're interlinked, aren't they, really? Because we're looking at that drive. We're looking at our rotation. But so as a coach's eye, and we're looking at technique, we're looking at the appropriate rope. Right? So it's rage, rotation, recoil. Simple in it. Right? Okay. Are they getting that range? Right? Are they getting the rotation through? Are they getting that recoil coming back into position? That's our coaching. So that I that's how we're looking at from boxing coaching point of view. When they do that, are their feet in the correct position? Have they got soft knees? Are they rotating through the hips correctly? Is their chin down? Is their guard in possession? Where's the non punching hand, for instance? When it comes back, where is it going to? Is it coming to the chest? Is it coming back to eye-line where it should be? Where are we going with it? That's our coaching eye, isn't it? But if we're looking at the kinetics, we're looking at that drop, I've we're looking at that coordination. We're looking at their core stability. So it's that rotational core stability, but then also the recoil, the instability that's caused from that rotation, and have they got the control to then bring it back in that coordination to bring it back? Do you know what I mean? So there's there's a difference

Steve Cranston [00:10:14]:
That's building the job. That's great. So you're adding all your little bits onto there. That's really good. 

Elliot Dillon [00:10:20]:
So and then your flare comes from that, doesn't it? Do you know what I mean? 

Adam Haniver [00:10:23]:
What I'm hearing from that there, Nels, sorry to interrupt. What I'm hearing from that then, so, like, almost like two things. So if if they don't have that stability, you know, core strength to be able to so as they punch a rear hand, they go past that past the punching line, they over rotate, over extend. It's hard to bring it back because they haven't really got the physical capacity to do that. But then the other side of things that we're talking about pads is where's the position of the pad that is actually encouraging them to over rotate. So not only are they not strong enough to actually what was the word you said? The stability to bring yourself back to the

Elliot Dillon [00:10:56]:
Yeah. Instability. To combat the instability that comes with it. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:11:00]:
But, actually, you're exacerbating it even more because the pad positions out to the side at a kind of 45 degree angle, and they're just rotating past the target. So a double whammy. So that's where pad would an issue

Elliot Dillon [00:11:10]:
And that's a big area, isn't it? Because if we're like, say, for instance, pads, we all know or we should all know that pads when we're holding pads, should be down our centre line. To where we can hold it nice and controlled. And it's in this space, and it's not much bigger than our our head, really. Soon as we start going like this, that's when we're gonna get that over rotation, aren't we? Because the poor boxer is having a reach and then reach. And that's one of the things that when I was young, sort of coach, kid started off coach, those that don't know, I'm quite tall, six foot five, quite broad shouldered. One of my problems is when I'm coach, when I was first, I'm thinking, but I hold the pad quite wide. I'd be up tall. Poor kids are reaching up and then having to rotate. And it wasn't until I started sort of seeing myself back and trying to improve myself as a coach that I started to notice the where I needed to improve. So a big thing for me now is when I'm working with the little kids, I wear the body belts because that's more at their eye level. And I actually don't put hand pads on, and what my hands end up doing is just holding noodles. And they might hit to the body, and then I'm adapting and then use it for noodles for defensive movements and stuff like that and trying to get that encouragement from there. But that's just individual preference, isn't it? I mean, and every coach will have their own individual way of tackling that.

Adam Haniver [00:12:33]:
There's different boxer as well, and it depends.

Steve Cranston [00:12:36]:
It's amazing how many coaches, address each boxer with the same height of pads.  Whether it you see little kids, you see little kids warming up with a six foot coach and he's got his pads up here. And then you see the six foot five guy with a five foot four coach and he's got his pads. Yeah. And that's about realistic pads. And that's another point. That's a point. So initially, the development of a skill, the technical development of the skill, you don't have to be a particularly good pad man.

Elliot Dillon [00:13:05]:
No. No. No. You just got to be able to identify yourself.

Steve Cranston [00:13:09]:
Once you start developing tactics and realistic pad realistic pads come into it then. 

Elliot Dillon [00:13:15]:
Yeah. So if we go to the word tactics, right, so if we're thinking about tactically breaking down an opponent, the tactics really is the technique under some sort of intensity or condition. Right?

Steve Cranston [00:13:25]:
Yeah.

Elliot Dillon [00:13:25]:
Bargain and say, we're gonna look at that, right? So if we're gonna get issues with the technique, that's just gonna manifest and become more evident when we start to jump into the tactical side of things. So we've got to have that staged approach, haven't we, without development of our boxes. So we start looking at the technical side of it now. Say we've got a relatively competent boxer, two or three fights in, been in the gym, maybe two years and put on that relatively good shape, knows how to throw a good jab, backhand, a little bit loose on the hooks, that type of stuff. You know, your tactics need to stay within line of what he's able to achieve technically. If you start pulling away from that, it's just gonna go

Steve Cranston [00:14:02]:
Yeah.

Elliot Dillon [00:14:03]:
In it. Do you know what I mean?

Steve Cranston [00:14:04]:
So You have to be within his scope.

Elliot Dillon [00:14:06]:
Exactly. Within his.

Steve Cranston [00:14:07]:
Again, that becomes pads for the boxers' needs. Pads for the boxer's needs as well.

Adam Haniver [00:14:12]:
I think you get

Elliot Dillon [00:14:12]:
individual needs as well.

Adam Haniver [00:14:14]:
You get to see on the pads as well what the capacity and capabilities are of that boxer in some respects, where how they move, where they move, you know, maybe the shape of this their stance, they can't move lateral very well and things like that. If you get a bit of appreciation for that and then you can maybe tailor make the pads for it. Here's a question for you guys then. So we sort of touched on it earlier. So if you are watching Instagram, whatever, you know, and you're watching some pads, how do you instantly know if something's not I mean, we know that you need to know what their their intention is, what the outcome. So that we have to think of that because you can't criticise if you don't know what they're trying to do. But how do you know when the alarms go off and you think, hold on, I wouldn't want my boxer working with that coach because of these pads? What are what are the signs?

Steve Cranston [00:14:59]:
One of the first things I notice is the coach moving more than the boxer. Coach is moving around the boxers not doing much. Then the coach might be looking at a combination and the boxer is thrown going from straight shots to bent arm shots and he doesn't move his feet and the coach doesn't move. The coach accommodates the boxer. Which we do as pad men. We accommodate them. I don't so much. But then again, back in the day when I boxed, there was no yeah, there was pads. Pads, I think, were first used by martial arts back in the day, a couple hundred years ago. Usually used them quite a bit as well, but I've never seen that. I was introduced to you know, and once brought a pair of pads into a course that I was on, on the camp that I was on, and we lacked, we didn't know what they were actually, and I think they were being used in the Eastern Bloc at the time, and he there was a bit of a demonstration we thought they're never going to catch on, nobody's going to stop wearing them, we just continue to hit the punch bags and occasionally hit the coach's hand and occasionally hit the wall of whatever you know. So they're never going to catch on but look at now how many different pairs. I mean personally I've got about five or six different sets of pads for different things. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:16:03]:
And Gav's got about 20 pairs of these?

Steve Cranston [00:16:06]:
Gav's got a couple of bags full. But every pad has, all the pads have a job to do. You know what I mean? Like, I've got coach spars. I've got pads for fast work, pads for heavy hitters, pads for medium hitters, and, you know

Elliot Dillon [00:16:21]:
I think go back to the question there.

Adam Haniver [00:16:22]:
Go on, Els.

Elliot Dillon [00:16:25]:
Yeah. I think go back to your question there about trying to identify what's maybe negative pads or not the best pads. Is when you see combinations, again, and it's just you see highlighted where the boxer's not moving their feet or getting themselves into the right position for that shot. So it's kind of like they reach into it. It looks like a flashy combination. And to the untrained eye, you look at it. Well, that's good. It looks dead fast and dead looks like you say you see flashing. But, actually, the boxer isn't in the right position really to throw that punch, to generate any force in that punch. In fact, they're coming straight back up in the firing line, right in the line of attack. Where's the defence? Where's the angle? But also, it'd be interesting to have a conversation with the boxer that you see with these and actually ask them, like, when you follow that punch, why are you throwing it there? What exactly are you targeting there? So for instance, a body shot. So a lot of people just throw body shots into place to where the big body belts and things are. But there's no real target with that. So, what are you aiming for?

Elliot Dillon [00:17:29]:
Are you aiming for this? Yeah. Just hit the body belt. So are you aiming for the solar plexus here? Are you going into the soft ribs? Are you aiming for the liver? Where are we going in? Because if you go too low, you just hit and hit, and you're gonna break your arm. You come off a little bit. You're gonna hit rib cage. It might hurt the boxer a little bit, but it's probably just gonna be a wasted shot, really. But they're sensitive areas that we can be attacking like we can on the face. Yeah. So are we targeting these? Do we know we need to be targeting these? Are you teaching boxes to target these? How are you doing that? And then also when they get there, get the drive off. Where's their exit route? Where are they coming back from? What's their phase after this? Where are you placing themselves in the ring? Why are they putting themselves there? The list just starts to build and build and build. And if you're seeing it and it's all straight lines, we all know this, it's all flashy up and down with the boxer's not having to move much, like, overly so, like, a large number of punches, there's always a one, isn't it, do you know what I mean? Because realistically, how many punches you're gonna get off in a combination actually land on a boxer? Two or three at the best, do you know what I mean? So if you're looking at five, six, seven punch combination Forget it. This not, it's not what we're doing here.

Steve Cranston [00:18:38]:
I don't wear a body bag. I use a pad position and I and I'll bring the pad actually to me ribs and I'll double up with the second pad or I'll bring the pad to me solars and I'll double up, love to move my feet quickly. And I don't usually ask for punches. 

Steve Cranston [00:18:55]:
And when I see somebody going asking for punches specifically, especially when they're shouting out numbers and that and that, I think the boxer shouldn't his opponent is never gonna tell him what to throw here. So give him a cue and see if he takes up on it. And the only thing I would generally speak about, see it during pad session would be move left, move your feet, move left. I would, if I was offered a position, say, tocome to throw a body hook and I've given that, that pad for the body hook, I would expect him to stop to move off to that side after the shot or just before the shot, so he's in a position to exit. So, yeah, and that's realistic pads. It's like somebody holding a hook out. Okay. If you're just gonna develop the hook and you want the boxer to develop the hook, you can do that on a punch bag or a pad, wall pad. But if you wanted to do it and they hold the punch way away from the body, way away from the body. And so the boxer basically practices a fault. He addresses his pad man with his feet because the pad man, I think, should be standing as a boxer. He addresses his pad man, that's his range. And all of a sudden the pad man puts the hook, the pad out for a hook, 12 inches off the body, then practicing the fault.

Adam Haniver [00:20:08]:
Just going back to the body what do you call them? Are they called body pads? Coach body pads? What are they called?

Steve Cranston [00:20:14]:
Body bag. Body bag. Body bag. Yeah.

Steve Cranston [00:20:17]:
body bag.

Adam Haniver [00:20:18]:
What I like about them is that when I try and think about the science part of it because, Steve, you're saying you present a target as opposed to telling them what to hit. It's the same with the body bag. There's elements of choice coming in now. So instead of I want you to throw one, two left up to the body, which is nonsense because as you say the opponent's not saying listen mate, hit me over one, two. You have to look for what's opening, what's available, and listen to your body kinematics, you listen to what you see into what they're doing in front of you, their range, etcetera. With the body bag, you can hit it what you can hit it at any time you want, so the choice goes back to the boxer, which I think becomes a little bit more real and representative of what goes on. But, as you, I think I can't remember which one you said it though, the only problem with such a bag, they're so big because they're trying to protect you can hit them anywhere, so maybe they need to have, you know, almost drawn on like ribs and target areas, the belt.

Steve Cranston [00:21:14]:
A few patches of colour on them don't they like?

Adam Haniver [00:21:17]:
Yeah they do, a little extra pad on the side, something you know around the rib area, but it's one maybe, and that's just one target, but the old aim small miss small thing. Can we have little targets? Yeah.

Elliot Dillon [00:21:29]:
So something that's quite interesting to do with this, and I've done this a few times, is just get tape and little target areas. They're the sensitive areas. That's what we're aiming for. Soon as you see that tape open up, boom, you read it. Do you know what I mean? Moving out of stance. And once that tape opens up, might be round behind the elbow, might be inside the elbow, might be where the solar plexus is, wherever it is. The boxer is just moving. He's adjusting. As soon as you see that tape open up, boof, there's a sharp and move again. We move again. Yeah. It's gonna be led a little bit by the coach because I think sometimes with padding, you can't help as a coach, you can't help lead it off a little bit or initiate it because, ultimately, you've still gotta be braced and be protecting yourself as first and foremost because you're you're not there. You're not a punch bag. You're not there to get hurt. Do you know what I mean? So you're still gonna lead off a little bit, and you're gonna present the target to them. Whether they take that or not, that's up to them. Yeah. So there's that. And that can work well, I think. But again, it gets down for me for me, it gets down to their understanding, isn't it? So why are they throwing that shot? Why is it beneficial? What leads on from that shot? How do you set that shot up? Where is the next step? Where is the space? Where are we going to after it? How does this work for us? Why does it benefit you? If you've got a boxer that's very lead hand happy, trying to get him to throw a right hand into the body just might be too much of a gamble for them in a competition environment. They're not gonna do it. So do we need to spend time developing that in training? Yes. Are we gonna overly develop it? Like, you can spend loads and loads of time on it. Probably not because his psyche and his mentality or her mentality probably isn't gonna commit to that shot at any point, but they need to understand it. They need to know it. So we're gonna teach it. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Cranston [00:23:14]:
And me, I don't like to wear the body bag. We've got them in there. And actually, I had a one that I felt really comfortable in, but you felt the punches through it. So and often on the body on the body bag belt, you're not inviting the punches. The punches come as and when. It's their option. Yeah. So you need to have one that's gonna support you.

Adam Haniver [00:23:33]:
Yeah. 

Steve Cranston [00:23:33]:
It's gonna absorb 

Elliot Dillon [00:23:34]:
And I think and I'm saying

Steve Cranston [00:23:35]:
that uncomfortable. So that's why I I tend not to wear not to wear them.

Elliot Dillon [00:23:38]:
And I think as well, you're bang on there, Steve. Like, sometimes, like, we all know when you get the pads on and the body bag on, a lot of boxes take that as an invitation to demonstrate how hard they hit. Yeah. So they like to demonstrate to you, look how hard I can hit, coach. This is gonna hurt you. And it's not that they're trying to be malicious to you. They just wanna prove that, hey. 

Adam Haniver [00:24:14]:
But that's not a bad thing, but is it reay? But it's like everybody shot you throw, you know you're gonna land, which is a bit of a problem because that target is so enormous. But it's like you said, are they landing it to the right area is a problem. What about so one of the things that's in the, the course that we're doing is about actually not letting the boxer hit the pads. Now what I mean by that is not going, I'm taking my pad away and you're gonna miss, and bang, there goes my shoulder, there goes my elbow. More along the lines of the boxer moving sorry, the coach moving so the boxer actually has to adjust their feet all the time, but also blocking the pad. So, yes, this is a podcast, but, obviously, some people can watch this on YouTube as well. So if you've got it here, and I've got my pad up and you're trying to throw a shot, I'm just gonna swipe. If you'd throw that shot, I'm gonna just parry it away. Not because I'm teaching people how to parry, because that's not how you teach people to parry. But if you're loading up, I'm just gonna push that shot away from my pad because that's what's gonna happen. You see what I mean? Or if they throw a shot to the, if they if they really dip their knees and throw this big long backhand to the body, I'm going to parry it away. I'll just bring my elbow down. Probably parry it away because it's hard getting your elbow down to the pad, isn't it, when you've got a body bag on. But just parry it away. So I wonder if there's more of a place around make them miss the pad without making them hurt themselves because they've got to miss some competition.

Steve Cranston [00:25:35]:
I always think that you've got to give them something coming back, so I always throw shots back at them. And I'll wear either coach or coach spar or coach spars with a big hit as I'll wear. I've got some heavy hitter air pads that I'll use that are quite soft that I can come back with. And if it does land, it doesn't do any damage. But basically, it's just in their face with stuff and generally straight punches. I'm not looking to throw hooks or uppercuts at them. They're just straight punches, I'll throw it back. And I will let them miss the pad, not blatantly where they're going to hyperextend or anything like that. I might pull the pad off them as it lands so there's no effect on it. And that's what happens in the bout, isn't it? You know, you miss punches miss.

Adam Haniver [00:26:11]:
It's a tough one, though, isn't it, boys?

Elliot Dillon [00:26:13]:
Because Yeah. So for me, I've

Adam Haniver [00:26:14]:
trade off between injury, trade off between injury, but actually teaching the boxer you would have missed. Because I saw you loading up from miles away, you know, where your feet weren't right, your ranges wasn't right. It's a it's a tough one.

Steve Cranston [00:26:26]:
Yeah.

Elliot Dillon [00:26:26]:
So do

Adam Haniver [00:26:26]:
you land them for sure?

Elliot Dillon [00:26:27]:
Wouldn't go I probably wouldn't do the, like I say, looking to miss the pad or purposely getting to miss the pad. But, like, simply to yourself, I don't know. I'd probably put a glove on. What the lead hand, the lead hand jab. I'd have the shot there. There's the target. Every time I see you load up, that's coming to give you well, you've gotta react to take that sort of loading up away and give them a sort of realistic, they've gotta try and get their get their if you got if you can. And it's I think that's what we're basically saying, isn't it? It's about trying to keep it realistic and be purposeful to what they are gonna do within the sport. Yeah. If we wanna make it realistic, we'll just get doing technical sparring or condition sparring or even open sparring. That's the best what we can do. Yeah. Pad work for me is that can we work on technique? Can we work on tactics? Can we look at the fundamentals, and can we build that up in place? And then when they're at that space, it's part of work. It's technical work. It's tactical work. It's but in that sort of condition, environment of sparring I think.


Adam Haniver [00:27:25]:
Do we think so what do you think about coach spar mitts? Because the more I think about the science of boxing, the more yes. Everything's got its place. You know, you've got pads, you've got shields, medballs, you've got waggles, and you've got, what are those called? You know, the batons. You know?

Steve Cranston [00:27:42]:
Pads. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:27:43]:
The lollipop things, whatever they are. I mean, you've got all those sort of things, but the more I think about the sort of science things, the more I think coach spare pads are great because you when you throw a shot back at the boxer, you're throwing it like a punch. So they tune into this sort of kinematics of what a punch would look like. So defensively, they start to realise the cues of a shot coming back. But when you pad people, you tend to, like, you sort of tap them on the head because if you don't tap them on the head, you're gonna hit them with your knuckles. Do you know what I mean? So the punch looks different. So they start not reading the cues and kinematics of the punch probably because the coach has got sort of slap it, like, if you just slap someone in the face. And again, it's a podcast, so you can't see much of this, but you slap something, your elbow's down. But when you throw a hook, your elbow's up. So the kinematics look different. So I wonder, are we teaching them not to pick up on real cues when we use pads because you don't wanna hurt them with your knuckle. But when you wear a coach spar, you got it you can throw a shot back like a boxer would throw a shot back. So I wonder if we're missing trick sometimes, but it depends what you're working on, don't it?

Steve Cranston [00:28:47]:
Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:28:47]:
Depends what you're working on.

Elliot Dillon [00:28:48]:
Yes. But, yeah, I think that's your coaching either as well, isn't it? You know, you're gonna be correcting that as a coach as well when they're when they're throwing it. And like you said, it's a tough one because us as coaches, we're looking to protect ourselves. We're looking to protect the boxers. So we can't really like so for instance, say I decide to throw a big right hand and they're gonna go for a hook to the body. If I throw a big right hand and overcompensate, I'm leaving myself well open here as a coach. Even with a body bag on, I'm open. I'm extended. My rib cage is elongated. It's gonna hurt. And there's only so much of that that we wanna take out as coaches. So I think there's an element of, yeah, we will do it. But it's it's like it's like training mode, isn't it? The more the more realistic we make it with the sparring, the more that's going to carry over to everything else. But it's that we've also got to toe that line of the damage to non damage, if you know what I mean to the athlete. So we've always got to be mindful of that. So you know, when to okay, we need to sort of progress this onto some sort of technical condition work or sparring, whatever it is. But also we know when to dial it back to that pad work, get the coach to die over it, break it down, and work on them fundamentals and build that back up.

Adam Haniver [00:30:03]:
But this is the problem. You know, the when is sometimes, you know, just as important as the how. But this is the problem I've got with this, guys, with the whole the whole pad part is because you mentioned if you wanna do it right, you know, we tech spar, we condition spar, we open spar because that's the sport that we're doing. It's two people not being cooperative with each other. They're trying to make each other miss. It's, you know, boxing is about being uncooperative, whereas pad work to some extent is very cooperative, isn't it? It's supporting each other. So there's a lot of you understand the plans, you understand the aims, whereas in competition, you don't, and you have to find that out. So the problem I have with pad work in general is that it's very compliant and complicit with each other, and then when you go into competition, and I know this from my my competition days, I felt really nice on the pads, like, bang bang sharp as, you know, sharp as a tack, and then you go into sparring, and that sharpness is gone because the range wasn't there. The tempo's changing. All the little bits and pieces that were present in the pads suddenly weren't present in the spar, and I felt myself falling over my front foot or not extending, rotating properly. And it just sometimes I just think, pads brilliant, but can we do it better? I think that's a very vague, silly question. Right. I think I mean, that's the old question I'm talking about now.

Adam Haniver [00:31:25]:
The transfer is what I'm trying to say, sometimes I don't feel, just because it looks great here, sometimes I don't think it transfers 100, it's definitely not 100% transfer, but how do we get it realer all the time? It's, so it's a vague question.

Elliot Dillon [00:31:39]:
It's a tough question, ain't it?

Steve Cranston [00:31:40]:
It's the accommodation again. It's the coach accommodating. I mean, actually, I've got to say, nobody ever showed me how to do pads. I watched other people doing pads and picked it up and then thought, that's wrong, that's wrong. Nobody we do it in courses, you know, you talk about the single pad, is that the right way? I suppose it's the best way to start it rather than start starting like with wide hands, to start with a single pad. And especially if you're going to use this hand for something else, is it always the best way? Certainly not in conditioning pads because you get your head knocked off, but, you know, like, and some pads, yeah, you could use the single pad. I do occasionally, but that's when it suits me as opposed to suiting the boxer, which is a bit unfair. That's pattern for for myself then, but it's Yeah. It's obviously to develop the boxer, but it's because it suits me at that time. And I think that's the biggest fault with coaches and pads. Coaches are accommodating the boxer more than making it as realistic as it possibly should be.

Elliot Dillon [00:32:33]:
Yeah. But I suppose this just to play devil's advocate on a little bit. Say we're going into a competition, there's gonna be an element of accommodation because we wanna psych them up a little bit as well. We wanna give them that confidence. We wanna give them that drive. We wanna feel it. They're ten foot tall walking in. They're about to smash their opponent's pieces. We want that sort of confidence going in if

Steve Cranston [00:32:55]:
Absolute for different,

Elliot Dillon [00:32:57]:
Exactly. There you go. So it's getting back down to the when and where, isn't it? And, I think that's the key, isn't it?

Steve Cranston [00:33:05]:
You would still have you would still have yes, you want them to feel good. You want they need that feel good factor, especially in the warm up pre competition, but you would still have good range, good pad position, realistic pad positions. There would still be something coming back at them. Yeah. That wouldn't be making the miss as such and everything, but you would give them you giving them options and you would be looking for realistic pads.

Elliot Dillon [00:33:26]:
Yeah the tempos likely to be high as well isn't it?

Steve Cranston [00:33:29]:
It's generally a range that I think a lot of coaches fall down on.

Adam Haniver [00:33:32]:
I think it's always a bit like tactical, you know, sort of those fancy words, oh tactical periodisation and stuff like that. So when you're doing pads, you know, the closer you get into a competition, it becomes very, you know, sharpening pads. It becomes very tactical. You're not really teaching them anything new technically because the whole skill acquisition part is not we don't want to be focused on something new anymore. You know, I've seen coaches in changing rooms teaching kids new punches before they go out. Yeah. And I think I've almost done that myself back in my early days, you know, to keep trying to teach them something brand new in the changing rooms, which you like is is beyond their capacity to apply that.

Elliot Dillon [00:34:11]:
And also at that stage for them, it's complete completely wasted effort because they're not gonna be taken on board from a psychological point of view anything that you're saying at that point. It's loaded. They're too nervous about what's happening, how they're gonna do it, why they're gonna do it, mom, dad's out there. Like, so you know what? I think from your point of view, the coach needs to be aware of that and needs to tailor to suit that from their pattern point of view. And also their communication point of view.

Steve Cranston [00:34:39]:
Some of it depends on the opponent you're gonna box, then your game plan's probably gonna be to rely on your on your own boxers. He's gonna be relying on his skills. Yeah. What he's good at. Yeah. But if you suddenly see the opponent and go, he's a southpaw. My, he keeps his hands low because you might see him warming up with his coach. Then you could give your boxer some information. But if he hasn't got the skills to deal with that, then it's you're wasting your time. He's got to have the tools in the toolbox before you can give him them.

Adam Haniver [00:35:04]:
Is there, is there something in the change? So you're warming up the change room. Is your boxers got to go out? And, you know, Els, I think you know you nailed it by saying, you know, there's that psychological part. There's the feel good, you know, of hitting the pad, crack, crack, crack. And we all know as ex-boxers, when you hit that pad with a sharp one two and your coach is like, oh, that feels so and you just know you had the right extension, rotation, all that kind of stuff. You go out feeling a million dollars and that's great for your psychology as you go into the ring and that's all you need. Is there a sort of, bit of room in the changing rooms for let's say we got rid of all pad work in the changing rooms, Right? This is where you look at me a little bit funny and actually almost have this kind of little touch spar. I mean, I know from a potentiation, if we're gonna use one of your words, Els, sort of, potentiation about driving force and all the way through, bang on for that because you can't hit your coaches hard in the face. So I know that. But I wonder in terms of, like, perception, so being able to read what's coming back, because most of it is about what you're throwing as opposed to what's coming back usually. I wonder if there is a bit of a the coach kind of, you know, coach spar on throwing that and you're reading it with the book block a little bit more the coach playing a boxer role as I play as opposed to playing a coach role.

Elliot Dillon [00:36:24]:
So I've played with this before where I've done it on home shows where I've had a couple of kids sort of back to back, kid little kids sort of similar weights and codes as part because you'll be warming a lot of them up together or similar times and stuff. And I've had them do like little tag spars and stuff like in the changing rooms to help towards that and sort of get their eye get the range in. I can't tell you if it works any greater or doesn't than the pads. Like, because at the end of the day, when they get in there, there's so many variables that take place. It's hard to unless it was the same boxer, the same night, the same fight, the same environment every single time, it'd be hard to quantify whether there is a difference to it or not. Right? So we we can't

Steve Cranston [00:37:08]:
I mean, I think there's no pads when I box, so I had to do that.

Adam Haniver [00:37:12]:
You're just chilling each other in a changing rooms.

Steve Cranston [00:37:14]:
We you know you would you would semi-spar with somebody from your gym if he was on the same show or if you were on your own somewhere you would basically shadow box against the wall, you know, you would like look shadow box against the wall, actually use a shadow sometimes, and sometimes you would just punch the wall, not hard, just spread the horsehair, just spread the horsehair.

Adam Haniver [00:37:38]:
I like this idea, though, boys, of, okay. So in the ring, when you're about to compete in five minutes' time, you throw a shot, the boy's gonna step back and let you miss, and he's gonna counter. All that kind of stuff. So the little warm up with two boxers in the changing room, just touch little shoulder touch. You're bringing the bringing in timing now, and you're bringing in the a little bit of element of representativeness where he's gonna make you miss or what you're gonna do with your feet. Whereas, or maybe that's not always available % with the pads.

Elliot Dillon [00:38:07]:
I think I'd go with maybe taking the mindset off with the boxer. Like, especially going into competition and that first bit of competition. I always stick with, like, once that first jab goes, we don't know what's gonna happen. We can kinda predict it. We can kinda sort of assume and presume and but, actually, once that first jab goes, we don't really know what's gonna happen next. We've just gotta let the boxers kinda work it out. And as as coaches, we're trying to pick up on the little details for those first eight seconds, for the minute, and then we can start to sort of pick the patterns out from that, can't we? Really? That's how it goes. So maybe it's actually a mindset of to the boxer, what do we throw first? What's going first for you? What are you gonna do first here? You know, what's that first initiation? What's that first attack? And then if we can maybe nail that or we can get that, that maybe then just puts them on that front foot a little bit more. That maybe just gets them to land the first shot, gets their little bit of confidence, and then they're into the competition from that point of view.

Adam Haniver [00:39:06]:
Yeah. It's that psychological start, isn't it? It's like having a good start in the hundred meters. What whilst we don't wanna be, like, you know, what's the word, you know, like video controlling them or game controlling them, that first punch gets the monkey off the shoulder. Do you know what I mean? It gets that ice off them straight away. It's like it's like your first task of the day is to get up and make your bed. It's the same thing when you box. Go out there, throw you one two as hard as you can. Do you know what? One, it might eat them hard, but two, you've kind of got rid of that tentativeness, that worry, that anxiety. So it's almost it's just that kind of psychological. So I like that as because I used to do that. That's why my coach said, what do you wanna do? Just go out and go crack crack? Because I was always nervous. So that it got the monkey off my shoulder really well. So the psychological part we need to consider with the pads as well, not just the technical and the and the tactical all the time.

Elliot Dillon [00:39:57]:
Because that's boxing, ain't it? Let's we're all here. We all know sport. Said that 90% of it's all psychological, really, isn't it? Yes. They've got to have to get it. Yes. They've got to have this little, but that is it. Like, if they can think it, they can believe it. They're likely to achieve it. We just got to give them the tools and the direction to do that.


Steve Cranston [00:40:17]:
I've spoken to who not all our boxers, hopefully, but boxers from close that I spoke to who didn't have a game plan, that didn't have something to do when they first stepped out after the first bell. Yeah. Yeah. And what they were doing is they would wait and see what the other guy did and they become that passive boxer.

Elliot Dillon [00:40:36]:
Yeah. You're on the back foot already.

Steve Cranston [00:40:37]:
Wait to see what the other guy does and if it's a one of they become then if you don't hit me I'll probably not hit you. Yeah. You see them. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [00:40:45]:
It sets that mindset straight away, isn't it? It's not pro boxing where you can feel people out. And some some boxers as pros are happy to give away the first two or three rounds, aren't they? As long as they're they're having a look and sticking on, you know, and you always talk about people like Lomachenko having a look at the little reads and the tells you that I've got you, I know what to do. But you you can't do that in three twos

Elliot Dillon [00:41:04]:
that three twos do it.

Adam Haniver [00:41:06]:
Yeah. Exactly. You can't do it on three twos.

Elliot Dillon [00:41:08]:
Yeah. You're done bythat time. You're sure when you run it. That's it. You get into it.

Adam Haniver [00:41:13]:
Yeah. See, the mindset's important there. So your pad work has to you know, it's the ramp almost the ramp protocol, isn't it? It's getting their body and mind switched on to the up the top of that ramp before they go in. Here's one. Gone. Let's talk about this. Mayweather pads. Steve O, I think we've had a chat about Mayweather pads.


Steve Cranston [00:41:33]:
I've done a course with Ben Doughty actually, he was doing this course, delivering this course in the Northeast, delivered it all over the country, speed pads, choreograph pads.

Adam Haniver [00:41:42]:
Doughty was delivering it?

Steve Cranston [00:41:44]:
Ben Doughty delivered it, yeah. First time I met him as well, good guy, good, clever, good, interesting, really interesting group. Anyway delivered this course, it was a day's course I think. So, you know, it's like all things you go and do it and you take whatever you can away from it. And I came away from it and I took it into college, talked about it in college. And so basically what you have, you have a group of punches. So he had basically everything finished on a backhand hook backhand, usually off a roll, and then you had, like, cues for the start up of the punches. So usually each little group had six punches. So little things

Adam Haniver [00:42:17]:
What are the cues?

Steve Cranston [00:42:18]:
So for example, you would say it to someone slip, slip, roll.

Adam Haniver [00:42:21]:
It's a verbal cue.

Steve Cranston [00:42:22]:
Right? So it's yet a verbal cue. Slip, slip, roll. So you would throw a lead hand backhand hook. They rolled underneath it and come back with a one, two hook. They would throw the lead hand backhand hooker, go underneath your hook and come back with a backhand, do backhand. So they're throwing six punches. One was, you initially started off with, touch, which was they basically held the lead hand against your shoulder, you showed them a target, they come backhand, hook, backhand, roll backhand, hook, backhand. So they're putting six punches together, all combinations. You could so I did it with kids in college and then I said, right, I want you to start making your own in groups to start making their own little combinations. When you run those, and I've done it with so many people, when you run them together, it looks impressive. It will never make you a better boxer. It's great for cardio and it's pretty good for balance as well, but brilliant for cardio. You give someone speed pads for a solid minute with the with the choreograph pads for a solid minute, they're breathing on it. And when you if you do if you do ten one minute rounds, it's a real workout actually. Yeah and for the coach as well to be fair.

Elliot Dillon [00:43:25]:
It's always creeping into that conditioning pads then aren't we really? Yeah it's very high volume isn't it?

Steve Cranston [00:43:30]:
You know I mean I mean Mayweather's Roger had done more work than than than Floyd to be fair and there are, you can put, you can make your own little combinations of whatever you want to do. I think I used to work with say six different combinations, sometimes eight, and you can throw them in as and when they don't go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Usually start with the first one, but you can go +1, 3413. You can number them if you want, but I would say, touch one, touch two, touch two on them, touch three on the back foot, slip slip roll, slip slip roll, touch one, what and give Boston Two step there was quite a few that were hard and they would throw those punches they would put that combination in so you can throw the combination at any time and the the boxer has to switch on and get it off straight away and it's amazing how quick they put it together. Is it gonna make them a better boxer or no, definitely not?

Adam Haniver [00:44:23]:
So that's what I mean, so what would you say if someone's delivering the course and is a big advocate of it, what would you say is their rationale for it? Because there's some good stuff there, hearing the physical, the mental, the fun. Is there a skill rationale for it? 

Steve Cranston [00:44:38]:
Probably not.

Elliot Dillon [00:44:40]:
Probably not.

Adam Haniver [00:44:41]:
The old devil's advocate. There is surely


Elliot Dillon [00:44:45]:
So I say this because you mentioned that. So it's coordination and balance, isn't it? And speed. So we're getting that. We get coordination, balance, and speed. So they, in theory, transfer over to other things that maybe it may help us become more athletic. Whether they actually transfer directly to the tactical aspect of boxing, which is going to win us fights different story. But if it's going to be done, we've got the foundation of technique, we can start to drop this stuff in one, the athlete enjoys it, two it's good conditioning three, it gives them a little bit of thing that they like to get likes on Instagram for. And then also we're getting some sort of balance, coordination and speed going on. Then it has its place, doesn't it? That it does have its place. I think it's got to

Steve Cranston [00:45:32]:
Some people have this and I would dismiss it when it is just specifically, let's do this combination and then we'll follow-up with this combination, then we'll follow-up with this combination, then we'll follow-up with that and it just goes by rote. When the system, I don't think that was his system. He just brought he just was traveling with it. You're thrown in different combinations at different times. It doesn't follow one, two, three. So you're thrown in a different, a combination here, a different combination there, and you usually give the combination when the finish thrown the last punch. So all the combinations finish on a roll backhand, hook, backhand, and you usually give that the next combination just as that last backhand's turning so that everything rolls on, everything flows on.

Elliot Dillon [00:46:18]:
So there's a real high level of concentration in there.

Steve Cranston [00:46:20]:
There has to be.

Elliot Dillon [00:46:21]:
Which is a massive positive for boxing isn't it? Do you know what I mean? So when I say people it's a tough one because

Adam Haniver [00:46:28]:
Is there a problem though with someone finishing, teaching a boxer constantly also to finish on a rear hand?

Elliot Dillon [00:46:34]:
Yeah. Of course it is.

Steve Cranston [00:46:36]:
Well, it does if that that that

Adam Haniver [00:46:38]:
what I mean? Would it be better just finishing on the rear end lead hook if we

Elliot Dillon [00:46:41]:
But if we're talking about this without the the tactical

Adam Haniver [00:46:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. We've got

Elliot Dillon [00:46:46]:
We put the tactical element off the way. Let's just let's forget about the tactical element here. Okay? Because we've established it ain't gonna make you a better boxer, but let's look at the other wider scope of it, which is, is it gonna help with the condition? Yeah. Is it gonna help with the speed? Yeah. Is it gonna help with the balance? Yeah. Is it gonna help with the coordination? Yeah. Does it help with concentration? Yeah. These are all important attributes that then can help push towards the tactical training. 

Steve Cranston [00:47:11]:
The coach has to be switched on that side. The coach has to be switched on as well because it's hard for the coach, especially if you've got a southpaw boxer there because you've got a change. So the coach has to be on the ball as well. There's a bit of work to be done.

Adam Haniver [00:47:20]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially if they overdo it. But, yeah, I think sometimes it's just it does. It's when the coaches are selling it as snake oil that if you do this and repeat it, it's gonna make you brilliant. Look at Mayweather. And we all know that Mayweather didn't become good because of that. Yeah. He came good because of all the thousands of years of sparring that he's been doing and all the other technical work he's doing, you know, that, you know, you can't read a punch you can't read a punch through routine. It's been able to read a punch when it's not in routine, when it's, you know, when the cadence is different, when you're not knowing where it's going. That's the skill of reading of defence, isn't it? It's reading something when you don't know something's coming, picking up the cues, and you don't get that from that because I could do because he looks away, don't he? He looks at the camera and he goes bah bah bah bah. So that tells me there's no perceptual skill.

Elliot Dillon [00:48:06]:
But you just hit our head. You just hit our head. He's looking at the camera. It's for the camera. That's it. That's all it's for. 

Adam Haniver [00:48:13]:
So we don't need we don't need to push it any further. I I mean, maybe 90% of the audience listening.

Steve Cranston [00:48:19]:
I have seen people warm their boxes up using it. Yeah. I have seen people warming their boxes up, whether they're warming them up or whether they were getting them ready, but I've seen them actually in changing rooms doing it. Not something I would do, I would, I'm gonna, I need time to deal with what we're gonna be dealing with in the ring but.

Adam Haniver [00:48:36]:
But maybe, maybe interspersed with some proper tactical stuff it's not a bad stuff, maybe it's a bit of a raise type thing, you know. Okay. Let's just get the gloves on. Right. Let's get going now. Get going. Bam bam bam not a tactical part. Again, I'm just I'm devil's advocate.

Elliot Dillon [00:48:52]:
We're at the we're going into we're going into the ring. We're at the business end of the sport. We need to be switched on. We need to be taking this stuff seriously.

Steve Cranston [00:48:59]:
We need to be thinking about what we're gonna do

Elliot Dillon [00:49:00]:
This is yeah. This is this is this is we've got health on the line now, so we gotta be switched on what we're doing and how we're doing it. So I wouldn't advocate that.

Adam Haniver [00:49:11]:
Yeah. Absolutely. But there's something called there's a geyser called Schmidt. It's got something called schema theory, where the theory is, like, you pick out programs from your body from your brain, and you can use those and put it into practice, you know, like rear hand roll, rear hand left hook rear hand, and that you can pick those out and use it. There's a lot of sort of evidence to say that's not the case when you're in a dynamic sport like boxing, and you don't just pick things out because you've learned it and able to do it straight away. It's a lot more, it's a lot more, complicated in that, an you're missing out the whole perception part. You know, being able to read build you know, when you just see kids and they can just read punches and they just turn you out and they time the counter perfectly. It can't come from it can't come from that kind of stuff in my opinion. What about games? Do you guys play any certain games with, you know, with pads, certain rules that might come in? Whether it's kids or whether it be competing boxes, a certain gamifying of your pads. So I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently, if I'm honest.

Elliot Dillon [00:50:08]:
It's not something I've dealt with.

Steve Cranston [00:50:10]:
Me neither. Me neither.


Adam Haniver [00:50:11]:
It sounds soft, I don't get, when you say games, you know, you think you think ludo, you think selects and ladders. I've been in schools,

Steve Cranston [00:50:17]:
I've been in schools and I've had the kids doing the relay and throw and we've done it in 10 or 15.

Adam Haniver [00:50:21]:
No I don't I don't mean in that respect. I'm I mean, some little things like well, whatever you call them games or you can call them constraints or stuff like that. Little things like, for example, again, you're looking at me, so end of the podcast, you'd have to look at, YouTube. But if I've got my pads there, I will set them a box up, hit those, but you're not allowed to hit it with a straight shot because I've got my pads facing you, and you're thinking lead hand rear hand. Yeah. Right. So  without giving them the answer, the answer is they need to pivot perhaps before they throw a hook. The come around the corner for the hook, and then I'll turn my hands inwards like that, and I'll go, not allowed to hit with the hooks. So again, the movement solution is I'll step to the side of my right hand straight or a jab, but they're kind of thinking about the solution.

Steve Cranston [00:51:06]:
WWe did that with the candidates on the level three course not so long ago we did oh

Adam Haniver [00:51:10]:
yeah okay

Steve Cranston [00:51:10]:
I'd seen that was absolutely Well

Adam Haniver [00:51:12]:
tell me.

Steve Cranston [00:51:12]:
Were you there that weekend when we did?

Adam Haniver [00:51:13]:
I think so.

Steve Cranston [00:51:14]:
So we did that. Well actually I think Ivan presented it to them and said okay so what do you do from there? What will you hit that? What can you hit that pad with? Yeah. Because straight away they were coming up there with the right hook. It took a while before somebody stepped across and threw a backhand. Everyone's got the same answer.

Adam Haniver [00:51:29]:
One or two answers to that, but their their whole arsenal of what how they can hit the target is only governed by what we've what we've done before, which is, right, you gotta hit that with a jab or a backhand. And then when you ask them to do something else, they freeze. So it's a target. Just hit it. So how you move your trunk and your feet, etcetera, will give you new answers to that. You know, it's this, again, fancy word, repetition without repetition. It's like there's different ways to solve the problem rather than just a jab and a backhand or a hook and a hook. There's millions of different ways. It's about hitting a target. I just think sometimes with games, you can put certain rules in games that gets the kids to open up their mind about how I find the target, which is change of angle, essentially, isn't it? A switch of attack, change of angle. But if we're calling the shots all the time, then why would they just gonna throw the same stuff all of the time? So I'll do it

Steve Cranston [00:52:21]:
I have used I have used the pad position and then turned it a quarter turn, so the box has then got to really pivot to come back and throw throw shots. I've used that before. I've never used the what can you hit that with?

Adam Haniver [00:52:33]:
It just gets them moving off to the side. I've done a video on it. They just get moving off to the side.

Steve Cranston [00:52:37]:
Get some thinking.

Adam Haniver [00:52:38]:
And, actually, I I always find as well that their pivots and side steps take care of themselves a little bit when they do that because they they don't you might occasionally see a kid cross his feet over or do something, you go, okay. That's not working. The constraint's not working. So you have to go back to your your coach's eye and have a look at their feet, their base, you know, the the the general the foot in the right direction goes goes first, all that kind of stuff. So but I think a lot of the times it actually works quite well and saves you a bit of time in terms of developing that skill, but I just think they open their minds a little bit more, when when doing it. What do you think, Agree?

Elliot Dillon [00:53:13]:
So I I presume you're probably loaded in them because you've given them that cue of, like okay. So my hand I'm holding my left hand up like it's a hook, and they've gotta go in for a straight shot for that. Right? Because you already given them that cue, you were saying that pivots and their change of angles are already set because they're already they're trying to get the shot there. Do you see what I mean? Rather than just exit out. So there's a there's a thought process after this pivot or this step. Right? Which is I've got to land the shot. Whereas a lot of times we do combination and they go exit, they pivot off, and then they automatically switch off because there's nothing else to do after that. Yeah. Because we're providing them what's next. More readily, they've got it then. And that's probably why it's getting taken care of. I wonder if that that carries over that. Do you see what I mean? Or are they still gonna have that initial switch off?

Adam Haniver [00:54:10]:
Yeah. I mean, possibly. I mean, it depends on the on the kid as well to that level of transfer and the competition, but not competition, but sparring initially. But I think one of the things that becomes important then as opposed to saying you must throw a left hook, you just say that's a target. So if you're looking at my face here, how many different ways can you hit that target? Right. Me just saying you just look at me going, I'm gonna hit you with a left hook, Adam. Okay. That's great. And it and then it has success around it, but I think it does limit the boxer and also limits their movement as well. So just there means I'm gonna stand in front of you and throw that, whereas I can move off the design and come back with this new shot. See, there's more ways to solve the problem if you think about a target as opposed to a punch.

Elliot Dillon [00:54:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You know what I mean?

Adam Haniver [00:54:52]:
It's external focus of control.

Steve Cranston [00:54:54]:
Boxers tend to feel that they should be face to face with their opponent. You can see them. They'll take an angle and they'll attack and then they'll come back round to face their opponent rather than attacking from that angle. I think it's in the it's like in their makeup that I should be facing before. You know what I mean? 

Adam Haniver [00:55:12]:
Well, that's because of reps in it, Steve. Because if I'm patting you, I'll go bang, bang, bang. We'll do a we'll do a a phase. We'll do some kind of thing, bang bang bang, let's repeat that again, so come and stand in front of me again. It's almost like the coach can grab the boxer, pull him back round, let's do it again. Whereas what's actually happening, what's happening, what's happening, okay let's move, let's move, now go. So the boxer understands a little bit more about when to throw it and and what happens in that kind of intermission, the bit when you're not punching, you know, the bit after the exit when you're not punching, what you do in your position in the ring, what you're doing in your range compared to your opponent, where am I standing, what am I doing, am I using some sort of deception, feints, triggers, draws. We don't do that because we go stop, come back. And there is a time to block that. I do think there is a time to block that, but actually for the sake of two or three seconds of where you're standing, where you're standing, the boxer can think a little bit more about where they are standing to actually to know when to start, where and when, as opposed to just what...

Steve Cranston [00:56:08]:
With more advanced boxers...

Adam Haniver [00:56:09]:
Yes. There's that as well. Who you're doing it with is important.

Elliot Dillon [00:56:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Cranston [00:56:12]:
Yeah. You get away with that.

Elliot Dillon [00:56:14]:
It's like you said, it's we're coming back to them foundations, aren't we? We've gotta have yeah. We're just gonna see the fault, fault, fault every time.

Adam Haniver [00:56:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. One of the other things I like to do, I like to do a little game. I don't know, Stevie. Well, you might have both seen it in Tenerife. It's just like a computer game. So it's like again, it's that repetition without repetition. So I put a pad there. What are you gonna throw? Give me two ways of hitting that. You're gonna go jab, and then you're gonna go backhand. Alright. What else? I want four ways of hitting that, and you go, well, maybe a screw shot. Okay. I'll give you a rear hand screw shot as well. There's four. Who can get the highest? They're level six, level seven, level eight. Right? And then you start seeing these skills emerge when they do pivot round and start throwing hooks or they'll bend the shot over the top. It becomes a little bit more, there's a target. Hit the target. Don't over constrain yourself with just one punch, how to throw it. And then it's like, okay. Two punches. So we're holding the pads like that, and you know they're gonna go rear hand, lead hook. Yeah? And then they go, what's next? Well go lead hook, rear end. Okay, great. It's the same thing but backwards, but what else? But now they pivot round and they go straight shot to that shot and that becomes a bent arm, that becomes a straight arm, and then the skills start emerging. But while that is great in terms of learning, I think it's important how do we then join pad work up to the spar very quickly and bring their intentions into spar because it can be, oh that was good, oh that was interesting, and it you never see it again in sparring. What's the point? The transfer is not there, the opportunity, you know, their intention, attention, all that sort of stuff, not there. So how do you bring that across? And I think maybe as a sport, we miss that sometimes, that kind of how you bring the pads actually across to what we're trying to do is get better at boxing, not get better at pad work and there's a bit of a problem because I think we all have this kind of badge of honour that he's a really good pad man, who's a really good pad man, he's really good, she's really good at pads, can she make that box better, can he make that box better, from what's happening in those pads? And I don't often know if the transfer is 100% there. Does that make sense in what I'm saying?

Elliot Dillon [00:58:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Cranston [00:58:20]:
It does. I mean, I can remember we had a slam man in one of the gyms I had. We had a slam man. You know, those, like Yeah. Bodies on a...

Adam Haniver [00:58:30]:
With the eyes and all that.

Steve Cranston [00:58:31]:
Yeah. It's a head and a body and

Elliot Dillon [00:58:34]:
yeah torso and a head.

Steve Cranston [00:58:36]:
People would attack that. People would attack that from different angles, they didn't always go, they would start head on but when you got them, they would step across it and, you know, they would step across and throw a jab at the at the side of the head of the of the slam man, which I always thought was quite impressive. I'm gonna throw a one, two from the angle, learning the angle, learning how to take the angle, but because it doesn't move, so you're maintaining your range as well. Seems a wall pad, how many people hit a wall pad from, they stand in front of the wall pad through the jab, through the upper cut, through the hook. Very few people move around the wall pad and attack it from a different angle, do they? Mhmm.

Adam Haniver [00:59:14]:
Yeah. A friend of mine, Scott Sievewright, who's a who's a MMA coach, he's really further down the line with sort of ecological dynamic stuff than me. He we were talking once about this and I can't remember what this theory is called, but he's basically saying that if you make it look like the real thing, like a face, like a body, etcetera, there is studies that show the transfer is is a lot higher, the accuracy, all these kind of things. I'm probably I'm doing a massive disjustice, but having a face there, the size of face, you can hit it on the temple, the cheek, the jaw, front of the jaw, the nose, the top of the nose, the temple, they're small areas but they make so much difference in terms of the impact of where you're trying to throw to. So having something like that kind of makes sense from a skill act point of view, from a force point, maybe not so much. 

Elliot Dillon [00:59:59]:
But we get back to that point we were making before with the body shots, it's what we hit and why we hit it and how does this work. What are we in the right position to hit that, isn't it, do you know what I mean? So it's the same principle, isn't it? Again, so, like, when you change the angle and you see the side of somebody's head and the guard up, where's the one where's the opening? Two what are we aiming for? Is it just the head that we're aiming for? Or are we gonna try and aim for the chin? Are we gonna go and top of the eye? Is it maybe you're just gonna try and be sneaky or behind the back of the ear? What we aiming for and why we aiming for it? Do you know what I mean? We've all been there when a boxer gets a little cut, and you're like, well, let's target that because we can get this bout stopped there. If that gets any worse. Next thing you know, you're gonna be looking to follow the shots. But if the boxer, it's the boxer in your corner hasn't really done anything like that, for instance, or knows what to do in in situations, then we maybe have left left them unprepared in some element of this sport because if we get down to the nature of this sport, yeah, okay, it is a sport where we score points, but it's still the hurricane. There's still two people from punches at each other that are gonna land and cause some force here. So we've got to understand those aspects of the sport as well. And now from that tactical point of view, we can maybe take advantage of that.

Adam Haniver [01:01:13]:
And equipment sometimes doesn't do that for us, does it? Yeah, I mean like for example, if you did have a, what do they call, what does that thing called? Yeah, the Bob face, what's it called? Yeah, you know, dummy.

Steve Cranston [01:01:22]:
That, that's slam man, isn't it?

Adam Haniver [01:01:23]:
Slam man, yeah. So we've got one of those sort of things that kind of, it almost looked like the Rossaziani stuck on the wall. That that guy. He's got that moody face. Yeah. It's stuck on a wall. So if you are if you do throw the shot, once you throw the shot, where are you gonna move afterwards? If you do, you know, do the Ricky Hatton or the Lomachenko around the corner and you throw the shot, where are you gonna move next? You're gonna move back in front because there's nowhere behind him because it's stuck on the wall.

Steve Cranston [01:01:47]:
So what it just looks like static.

Adam Haniver [01:01:50]:
Your exit is kinda lost straight away, you know, in terms of where you might move next. Usually, you wanna you wanted to sort of go around and make him chase his tail, so that's lost. But I do I do think that whole, you know, I haven't talked about aim small, miss small, doesn't he, all the time? Like you're saying, Elliot. So if you do see a cut, I mean, I'll just be honest. It is a we do it. It's not nice, but we do it. The nose is bleeding. You go for the nose a little bit more. You hurt the kid up the body. You need to know where to hurt him up the body and how to find that again. But if they've got their elbow there and they're tucking up, you need to find a way to open that up.

Elliot Dillon [01:02:23]:
Where's the next obstacle? Yeah. Or where's the the next opening now?

Adam Haniver [01:02:26]:
Exactly. So can you just use that to make an opening? You know, all the feigning, triggering, drawing, all this becomes the art. And I think sometimes maybe with pad work, we lose that depending on the skill of the coach or the intention of the coach. You know what I mean? What are they actually trying to do? So often it'd be cut I just find and I I find myself falling back into this sometimes is that I find that it's they're gonna punch or they're gonna defend. They're gonna position themselves. They're gonna punch, but how often are they actually fainting, triggering, drawing when they're doing the pad work? Because there's no real need to because it's all complicit anyway. Doesn't matter if you feint me. Who cares? I'm not gonna get hit. I'm the pad, man. Do you know what I mean? Maybe I'm going off a tangent again

Steve Cranston [01:03:07]:
I've been conned by a few people with a feint, a few good kids, been conned by the feint and you and you and you you were just for it and then they come back with a shot and you think, oh, that was good. I wasn't expecting that. I came back.

Adam Haniver [01:03:18]:
And you didn't pad it very well. Sure. It's like, if you didn't pad it very well, it's almost like if you fainted and then threw a shot and I didn't pad it very well, then actually that what that means is that you that's good because I didn't really read the pad very quickly, so that's good.

Elliot Dillon [01:03:31]:
But the boxer is getting they're getting feedback. Yeah. They didn't track the pad right, so they're probably not gonna do it again. So then is the argument that actually pad work that's beyond pad work? Like, that's pad work can't, maybe that's past pad work for us. 

Steve Cranston [01:03:48]:
I'd probably complement the boxer there.

Adam Haniver [01:03:50]:
So it just highlights I think what you're saying, Elliot, it just highlights the fact that padwork isn't a 100% representative and doesn't have a 100% transfer. And I think we've got a I just generally think the more I think about padwork, the more we have to, one, really understand what we're trying to do, have a real clear intention about it, but two, also realise that just because it goes perfect doesn't mean it's gonna transfer over. That's, you know, it's more like a prep thing, isn't it? It's more like a prep of the mind, a dry rehearsal, you know, before going into a spar, and it has that it has those benefits. But I just think it's, like, tread carefully when it comes to pad work. 

No. There's loads of variables and I do know a lot of sort of people deep in the skill acq with with thousand times the knowledge I have in skill acquisition that will that will, say we don't do pad work at all. We think it's absolutely worthless. That probably because they come from other sports, whereas actually in boxing it's all about hitting, where in martial arts, you you know, you're you're holding, you're pinning, submitting, all it's different. You can you can still work on the sport without punching, so they have that. But we don't have that luxury. So but I do think we also need to think about it from the psychological and the relationship side. I think you said at the start, Ell, didn't you? Pad work affords you the opportunity to have a conversation, build relationships, talk tactics, have all that kind of augmented feedback that you can put on top of it where other things wouldn't. You see what I mean? So it does afford other stuff, it's not always about just the skill acquisition stuff, which is limited, but I think there's there's this element of, do you know what, some of the best conversations I've had and penny dropping moments actually come in pad work. Do you know?

Elliot Dillon [01:05:38]:
Or even just after ten minutes of pad, and then next thing, you know, we're having a twenty minute conversation, and then that's the session done. Because we've highlighted some stuff. We've then gone on to explain it, get their knowledge of it, get our understanding of what we thought their knowledge was, where the gaps are, how we can improve it, what it needs to look like, and then we can move on from there.

Steve Cranston [01:06:01]:
Yeah get to know your boxer, you can get to know your boxer can't you? Which is and if it's someone who you don't know very well you can get to know them better.

Adam Haniver [01:06:08]:
And you can't really do that in a spar can you? You can't build a relationship in the spar, you know, stop,stop what stop, Stop stopping me. I'm trying to spar it, and he's trying to punch me in the face. You can't do that because it's sort of time wasted. Yes. You can stop spars and have conversations and, you know, direct the bit of, you know, why didn't we try this? What about this? Why did you do that? Ask questions. You can do that. But it doesn't lend itself nearly as good as pad work would do. But I think then we have to bridge that gap between remember it's pad work and it ain't boxing, it's pad work, but it's close to boxing. So it's I always just say tread carefully with pad work. It's not what we think it is, but it can be better than what we're doing.

Elliot Dillon [01:06:50]:
It's a fantastic tool when used right?

Adam Haniver [01:06:52]:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Chaps, have we got anything else that we, I mean bloody hell, listen, I've I've got loads of notes here, we could probably have a episode two, three, four on this, couldn't we, and talk about because there's there's too much to talk about in there with these there's so many variables that you can talk about with this. Anything else that we we've, we've missed? You think you know we probably need to talk about this?

Steve Cranston [01:07:13]:
No, I just think that the priority has to be you're doing it, pad work is done for a reason, you don't do pads for pad's sake, there has to be a reason behind it and it has to be led by the by the athlete, really. Has to be athlete lead. Sorry. Not led by the athlete, but athlete lead.

Adam Haniver [01:07:30]:
Can be a bit of really on the but I think, traditionally, it's too coach led, isn't it?

Steve Cranston [01:07:34]:
Well, I mean, for the benefit of the athlete, that's that was the point. Yeah.

Elliot Dillon [01:07:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get what's this idea. We're doing it because this is gonna be the athlete this way rather.

Steve Cranston [01:07:44]:
Some people zoom in and do pads because it's easier than running the session. I'm just gonna do some pads with these. Is that for you or is that for them? You know?

Adam Haniver [01:07:51]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So so intention is the mother thing to consider before we start. What's the intention for you, for the boxer? Is it an agreed intention? And then we start we start facilitating it through that. And I yeah. Els, you mentioned that coach's eye is something you've always got to bring in. Because if you don't if you haven't got a good coach's eye, then you're just repeating rubbish if you don't really know what you're looking for.

Elliot Dillon [01:08:15]:
Yeah. And I think with that as well, like, that touches on a bit of a point is having more than one coach with the pads. So, like, one coach pad and one coach watch it or maybe two coaches pad and wall, you know, while one's pad and the other one's watching. You can sort of start to break it down there if you can afford that and you've got the manpower to do it. Well, all video. Just yeah. All video. Yeah.

Adam Haniver [01:08:38]:
You do that at GB. I can imagine you do that at GB.

Elliot Dillon [01:08:41]:
Yeah. The everything's sort of filmed, on the cameras. We've been mic'd up as well, and then filmed while doing stuff. And and that gives you another perspective on your coaching, and really opens your eyes to what you think you're saying to the boxes and then what's actually getting said, but that's a that's a different conversation for a different day, I think.

Adam Haniver [01:09:06]:
Yeah. That's, yeah, his next level. But, again, pads lends itself to all these conversations. I mean, you can there's so much you can do as pad work almost as, like, the vehicle, the conduit. So it's the kind of learning. It doesn't have to be direct skill development from the pads, but it offers the opportunity for other things to come into it. If that makes sense, I'm not sure if I'm being particularly clear there, but hopefully you get what I mean. Boys, it's Friday night. What time is it? It's bang on half past eight. Go and get yourself a beer. Go and get yourself a a Johnny Walker, Whatever your tipple is, I'm sure yours is just prune juice or something like that isn't is Ells?

Elliot Dillon [01:09:39]:
Something like that. Yeah.

Steve Cranston [01:09:40]:
Good to see you, Elss.

Elliot Dillon [01:09:42]:
I know you, buddy, Steve.

Steve Cranston [01:09:43]:
Good to see you, mate. Pleasure, mate.

Adam Haniver [01:09:45]:
Appreciate it, guys. Thanks for your thanks for your time.

Elliot Dillon [01:09:48]:
Nice one, fellas.

Adam Haniver [01:09:51]:
So that was Elliot Dillon and Steve Cranston, my DiSE colleagues. Hope you enjoyed that. Loads of knowledge experience to bring to the conversation there. Some absolute gems dropped by the lads. So the pad work course drops next week for all our members. So get on board at www.theboxgathering.com, and I'd really love to hear your thoughts. There's over eight hours worth of videos, content, and resources there to help you ramp up your pad work to make better boxes. Thanks, guys. Cheers.